I do not understand the point of this jazz music

[Ed McCullough]

In youtube.com, I have been listening to " Chet Baker - 1980 Live in Paris. There's a large part of it that does not mean anything to me. I don't see what the musical goal is. Please listen to the part of the music between 29:00 and 43:00. All I hear is a bunch of notes rambling around, no matter what instrument is playing. I wish the drummer would shut up and take a vacation in Tierra del Fuego for a while. The drums and the brushes on the cymbals don't do anything except get in the way. They are just simply a noise. Okay, after you get the drums out of your mind, what the heck is the point of the rest of the music between 29 and 43?

[Age]

Yeah, it sounds almost like "free jazz" (which I affectionally nicknamed "Chernobyl Jazz" many years ago) but not quite as radical, yet enough that if some big name dude were to play it in the street in front of my house, I'd just close my windows, or build something using my power saw. Guess I'm not a fan either.

 

[Ed McCullough]

I went to the 2009 s p a h convention in Sacramento, California. One night I went to a jazz playing opportunity in the evening. Various people played. It seemed to me that they were trying to impress each other with the number of notes that they could play very quickly.

[SlimHeilpern]

The term "jazz" covers many styles that have evolved over the years. The great thing about music styles you don't like is you don't have to listen to them :-).

As for this particular recording, I listened to the section you identified. As an educated lover of most jazz styles, I can say that there was nothing at all out of the ordinary here. The drummer is doing what jazz drummers do, same for the other players. However, I've been a jazz enthusiast for most of my life and I understand the evolution of this music and that makes it even more enjoyable for me to listen to it. These players are advanced in their knowledge, chops, and inventiveness. They're creating as they play, and that's exciting to listen to (for some of us :-)).

Nothing wrong with disliking it, but these were highly respected artists making great music.

- Slim 

[Ed McCullough]

Somebody somewhere must like that music, but nobody has yet explained what the players are trying to do. I really want to understand what scheme or plan is followed in making that music. I'm sure the musicians know what they are doing and have a good plan. I just want to learn what the plan is.
Much drum work does not interest me either. When Garrison Keillor had the program Prairie Home Companion, I enjoyed the music. When his replacement took over the program, the replacement man brought a another style of music in which drums were very prominent. I simply called all the music on his program thereafter "drum music", and it was less Musical.
I like tango music. When Astor Piazzolla played, it was totally free of drums.. IF there are drums in any other tango music, I am unaware of them.

[smojoe]

Just an opinion Ed, but as an ex 'attempted' cornet/trumpet/clarinet player you may have something there. Baker was.. arguably for sure.. one of the greatest trumpet players to have ever lived. But I always found him chippy, without emotion, didn't lean on the important notes, and, basically was showing 'finger exercises'. So, he never got the boquets that some other players got, because like you, a lot of people didn't grab onto what he was trying to say, so he stayed a rung below.

I thought he played a lot of tunes, that, although they had names, had no words, nor musical structure. Just rambling notes. And all with the same accentuation/presentation, timbre, etc. I have seen a lot of this with harmonica players too. Some just want to get up there and have their 15 min. of fame. Sometimes at the expense of others. Btw, I have been a jazz lover for about 75 of my 82 years. I started with 78 records. lolol.

My ears told me that both the drummer AND piano were crowding him. Sax fine, bass too quiet.

smojo

[SlimHeilpern]

Somebody somewhere must like that music, but nobody has yet explained what the players are trying to do. I really want to understand what scheme or plan is followed in making that music. I'm sure the musicians know what they are doing and have a good plan. I just want to learn what the plan is.
Much drum work does not interest me either. When Garrison Keillor had the program Prairie Home Companion, I enjoyed the music. When his replacement took over the program, the replacement man brought a another style of music in which drums were very prominent. I simply called all the music on his program thereafter "drum music", and it was less Musical.
I like tango music. When Astor Piazzolla played, it was totally free of drums.. IF there are drums in any other tango music, I am unaware of them.

It's not what I would call a "plan". It's an evolution. Do you not enjoy Dixieland music? It just evolved from there. Sorry you don't enjoy drums -- so much great music utilizes drums or percussion and it is a foundations of jazz (which among other things draws from African drumming). As for actual jazz music theory, there are many, many books explaining it -- but it's a big subject and may take a while to absorb.

Smojoe: Yeah, it was poorly recorded and a bad mix, but that's not the player's fault, is it?

[smojoe]

I agree Slim. It IS an evolution. And yes, I love dixieland. Mainly because you get the 'warts and all'. lol. I has a humanistic quality to it. As for the drums. I love a good drummer. I just thought that this one was a bit too busy (while on TOP of someone). And I would have liked a bit more bass.

Afro Cuban is probably my most favorite. And as for theory..You have me there. I am not that well versed on theory. I just like to hear something that makes sense..to me. It's all about me..Al Frankin...lolol. And the recording was kinda lame. Probably not commercially done? And as for Chet, I liked the guy. But given a preference between going to see his quintet or the Young-Holt trio, I would pick Young-Holt. Or maybe Lee Morgan, or Miles.

I'm just a simple man of simple tastes. . That's why I admire you. At the jazz jams I practically had to break your arm to play. Then you said that you had nothing to add..at that moment. And I understood EXACTLY what you were talking about. You prefer to express yourself. Rather than just throw out a slew of notes. A true professional.

smojo

[Ed McCullough]

Joe, you are thinking of somebody else. We never met at any of the Jazz jams.

[SlimHeilpern]

I agree Slim. It IS an evolution. And yes, I love dixieland. Mainly because you get the 'warts and all'. lol. I has a humanistic quality to it. As for the drums. I love a good drummer. I just thought that this one was a bit too busy (while on TOP of someone). And I would have liked a bit more bass.

Afro Cuban is probably my most favorite. And as for theory..You have me there. I am not that well versed on theory. I just like to hear something that makes sense..to me. It's all about me..Al Frankin...lolol. And the recording was kinda lame. Probably not commercially done? And as for Chet, I liked the guy. But given a preference between going to see his quintet or the Young-Holt trio, I would pick Young-Holt. Or maybe Lee Morgan, or Miles.

I'm just a simple man of simple tastes. . That's why I admire you. At the jazz jams I practically had to break your arm to play. Then you said that you had nothing to add..at that moment. And I understood EXACTLY what you were talking about. You prefer to express yourself. Rather than just throw out a slew of notes. A true professional.

smojo

Yeah, I too prefer Lee Morgan, Miles, and others, but Chet was no slouch :-). And I remember that jam -- in addition to not having anything to say at the time, I probably had never played the tune before and didn't want to embarrass myself!

[Gnarly He Man]

I agree Slim.
<snip> At the jazz jams I practically had to break your arm to play.
<snip>
smojo

I asked Slim to be my wing man at my SPAH debut in Dallas, and he graciously joined me on stage.
How High the Moon.
Good guy, that Slim.
I like Joe too.
Hey, all youse guy is all right . . .
PS Bird

[smojoe]

Slim sead: I prolly had never played the tune before and didn't want to embarass myself.
Har dee har har, that's so funny I forgot to laugh.
Good word Gnarley...Graciously. That fits.

joey
p.s. The tune was either Little Sunflower or Song for my father. I really needed to hear YOUR rendition. Oh well, I loose, mooned again. lolol.

[jasonic]

well, as a pretty big Chet Baker fan I’d say it was a pretty subdued performance, there were technical difficulties with his mic, and they were just doing fours during that section but Chet looked distracted and more high than usual. Late Chet can range from stellar to pretty awful depending on the night. He was decades in to his heroin and/or methadone addiction by that time. I didn’t hear anything too radical music wise, using alt scales was popular by then, but frequently got overused, and still does. The best Chet Baker is Late 50’s, early 60’s on the Pacific Jazz label. His band with Gerry Mulligan is legendary.

[jasonic]

Also the tune at that section is “Just Friends”, which has a couple of unusual chord modulations, which bends the ear a little until you get used to it.

[Gnarly He Man]

An old favorite.
From Songfacts:
"This Gorilla cut found the Bonzos savagely parodying their early "trad" jazz roots. Founder member Neil Innes recalled the story of the song to Uncut magazine: "It was decided to do this as a dada track, one take, and whatever happened that was it. Viv (Stanshall) picked up the trumpet, which he'd never played before. Rodney (Slater) took up the trombone, which he'd never played before. Roger (Ruskin Spear) moved over to clarinet. And we steamed into this 32 bar sequence, as you hear it on the record. It makes me laugh every time I hear it."

[SlideMeister]

That was fargan hilarious!!🤣

[servus]

I wish I could play the instruments I know how to play like that.

[Gnarly He Man]

At 1:25 leader Viv takes a trumpet solo, which turns the beat around in short order--
Time gets saved around 1:51 thanks to the strong left hand of smart guy Neil Innes on piano.
Is it art? It IS hilarious!

[Gnarly He Man]

Last call for posts on this forum--
Here is a blues by Sun Ra, modern enough but not outlandishly so.
https://youtu.be/MAl_YpxDylY?si=uzmHtULolOrDDL4d
We are used to these sounds now.

[servus]

It kind of reminds me of the allegro section of the Bach flute sonata (no. 5) I've been practicing these days: i.e. pure music.

[Ed McCullough]

I heard Thelonious Monk when I was about 18 years old at the Newport Jazz Festival in Rhode Island. I didn't know anything about jazz, but the Newport Jazz Festival was famous, so I went there. Thelonious Monk played. I did not know a darn thing about his style of music, but I knew he had a plan. In this piece by Chet Baker, I only hear mumbling. Mumbling. Whether he is singing or using the trumpet, I only hear mumbling. I hear no Melody, no tune. Jasonic said there was a Melody there. Well, maybe there are some tiny references to a melody that somebody else already knows, but there's no Melody there that I can hear.
-. I do not know anything about record labels or names of music that Chet Baker played early in his career. Please tell me names of tunes that Chet Baker played early in his career, so that I can find them in YouTube. I know Chet Baker's name is one of the major names among instrumentalists, but I know nothing about him yet.

[Ed McCullough]

I just listened to about an hour of Chet Baker in a movie about him. I assume the movie has his strongest works. I also listened to Miles Davis' album Round About Mdnight. Those two musicians float other people's boats. That's fine.