I like alternative tuning

[Gnarly He Man]

I even do it to the Chrom!
But the diatonic gets a facelift when you change some notes around.
Kinda like Joni Mitchell, pitch until you win!

[smojoe]

But..but..you're an alternative type of guy. (:^)x

[SlideMeister]

But..but..you're an alternative type of guy. (:^)x

Yeah, we all knew that. 

[Gnarly He Man]

But..but..you're an alternative type of guy. (:^)x

He started it

[beads]

If it wasn't for alternative tunings I would have quit harmonica shortly after I started. I'm a melody player, not a blues player, and the standard blues harp tuning didn't let me play the music I wanted to play.

[Gnarly He Man]

I think a lot of players over the years have employed different tunings to achieve results.
Al Smith did a lot, I think.
I discovered indications that John Sebastian Pugliese did some.
I once asked Kit Gamble what he thought the best tuning was, and he said, "Richter".
But he didn't say it was the only one he used, he was the Lee Oskar guy at the beginning of the company, had a hand in a lot of alternate stuff.
I am proud to say I have come up with tunings that almost no one has tried--that work!

[Rich35]

  I am Liking alternative tuning a lot since I got used to melody makers, and looking forward to learning about major cross tuning and paddy Tuning s,
  as well as my Chromatics and tremolo,s.

[SaxonyFan]

Wouldn’t play anything but augy or dimi tuned chrom.

[SlideMeister]

If I were starting over (as in: thirty plus ago) and I knew about Auggi and Dimi, I'd probably be there with ya.  Prolly be groovin' on some little ten-hole 260 or somethin'.

[smojoe]

Tried it. Wasn't good.
smo

[Gnarly He Man]

Tried it. Wasn't good.
smo

I like dimi pretty well--but don't study it.
Frankly, it pays to find a tuning for chromatic that you like and stick with it--and solo is easy to acquire.
If I hadn't seen Bill Barrett play in person early on in my chrom experience, I wouldn't have tried bebop. I got lucky.
http://www.SlideMeister.com/forums/index.php?topic=1076.0
This is the earliest post I can find about me and bebop, I will keep looking.
Edit: I found this.
https://forums.SlideMeister.com/index.php?topic=60.0
So this must be before I saw Bill.
And it mentions my father's passing--I just got back from two weeks in Oklahoma, fixing the house he left behind, trying to get it ready for a new renter.
Lotta work, still not done--but I got a property manager who is going to help.
I reckon it's been 11 years I have been studying bebop--but not enough to make me employable 

[SaxonyFan]

Tried it. Wasn't good.
smo

Yep. If, like you, someone has been playing the solo tuning for a long time then it’s not going to be good initially and for a good while there after. You have to unlearn the solo tuning while learning the new tuning. Unlearning may be more difficult than learning. That’s why I started out with an altered tuning. My goal from the beginning was to be a real ear player and the dimi or augy is an excellent and obvious choice for those who want to develop the freedom and joy of playing entirely by ear.

Nowadays the argument that alternate tunings aren’t easily available is just not valid.

So choose your first instrument well.

PS: Seydel, I’m looking forward to getting a Symphony 48 through your HarpConfigurator. Hint hint.

[John Broecker]

I have a dimi reed placement 4-octave Hohner Super 64; and
a Seydel Chromatic Deluxe Baritone in circular reed placement.

The dimi reed plates were bought from Mike Easton, and placed
on the Super 64; and the circular Seydel chromatic was custom
made for me, by Seydel.

As Saxony Fan has written, I still prefer the solo system, and use
the altered tunings rarely.

Solo system slide chromatics are available as stock items, in most
music instrument retail stores and internet harmonica sellers of slide
chromatics. If an altered tuning harp breaks, you will wait months
for a repair or replacement.

Best Regards

John Broecker

[Gnarly He Man]

If an altered tuning harp breaks, you will wait months
for a repair or replacement.

That is true.
My turnaround tends to be 4 to 6 weeks, but I wouldn't pursue altered tuning if I had to rely on someone else for service.
I first started with Melody Maker, but didn't like the Lee Oskar harps, so I had TurboDog (Jim Antaki) retune SP20s for me.
But it got too expensive for me (I am not a rich man), so I learned how to work on harps.
IMHO the trick is to never throw your old and broken harps away when you replace them, and by the time you are ready for altered tuning, you have old harps to learn repair and customization.

[SaxonyFan]

Guys

We all have multiple harps. If one has an issue you play one of the others while the repair is made. No big deal.

Also, I have never had a harp go unfixed for longer than 10 days. I have only once had a reed replaced and any other repair I can do by ordering a new part and having it on my door step in days.

[SaxonyFan]

As Saxony Fan has written, I still prefer the solo system, and use the altered tunings rarely.

Woa! I didn’t write that I prefer the solo system. I don’t. In fact I loathe it.

[streetlegal]

I think I must have a contrary personality, because I always seem to look for ways to change things around. So I've got my own altered tuning for chromatic - my guess is that I'm the only person in the world that plays it, which doesn't displease me. But also I have my own tuning for my guitars, which suits me but probably wouldn't suit anyone else.

The moral of the story - people only change things because they can't live with them the way they are and that tension creates the energy that will lead them down different paths .

[John Broecker]

Hello, Saxony.

I didn't write that you preferred the solo system
reed placement.

I wrote that I preferred the solo system.

Best to You.

JB

[Gnarly He Man]

I am sending Rich a Major Cross in E, so let's talk about that.
It was originally an A (Manji) and I raised the notes on the blow bottom so that the chord is now B7 (so the notes are B D# F# A C# E  A C# E G#) and the draw is E major, with a C# (the root of the relative minor) on the bottom (so the notes are C# E G# B D# F# G# B D# F#).
There are no missing scale notes, so starting with blow 1, you play in and out and get an E scale (starting on B). Once you get to hole 7, you have to play two draw notes in a row, just like on a standard tuned diatonic (as with the original Manji in A). Finally, blow 10 is tuned down to give you the third note of the scale (G#).
You still have to play the top backwards--in other words, the breath pattern still reverses at hole 7--but it's not as stupid as the Marine 365--I just worked on a customer's and the pattern gets really wonky in the top octave--you have to play it like moving the horse in chess, up two and over--oy!
I use Major Cross a lot, it's like Melody Maker, but better in that there are no missing scale notes.
And not as good, in that the chords on the bottom are arranged in a circular fashion, as opposed to the Richter pattern--Melody Maker is "Paddy Richter" up to hole 5 (that note is raised a half step).
Hey everybody, what's your favorite alternate tuning?

[Crawforde]

I like Paddy Richter on a ten hole and either C6 or Bebop on a twelve hole.
All work well with a button as well. My current go to harp is a paddy.
I’ve never tried major cross.
I had a fourkey and made myself a two key (pentabender)  as well. Those pentatonic tunings were great for pleasant noodling, and I was able to play a couple cool sounding Japanese folk tunes on the pentabender (it is in D like a shakuhatchi)  but I never really figured out how to play them. I somehow misplaced them and a chromatic I was trying to retune to fourkey a hurricane or so ago,    >:(I expect they are in a box in the garage or attic and will show up eventually.

[Gnarly He Man]

I like PentaBender too, but have not used them lately.
They are similar to the Power Chromatic tuning, so it's pretty easy to put them into service when the need arises.
Like to talk about Power Chromatic now--it's tuned so that the blow chord is the subdominant (in the key of C, an F6) and the draw is the dominant (G6).
So the harp has all the major scale tones (in the key of C), and every hole has a draw bend.
That means it has all the chromatic notes except for the b6 (Ab in the key of C).
PentaBender adds another hole, blow is the 5th (in the key of C, a G note), and draw is the 6th (an A).
So it is possible to get the Ab with a draw bend.
Roger (Oldstudent) came up with it, and I like it!
I made a slide version, it's here somewhere 

[IaNerd]

Folks may also consider *Inverted* Bebop, which is introduced here, including a video review by Brendan Power:  https://www.brendan-power.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=612&start=10#p2812

[Gene Oh]

If it wasn't for alternative tunings I would have quit harmonica shortly after I started. I'm a melody player, not a blues player, and the standard blues harp tuning didn't let me play the music I wanted to play.

Me, too! I have tried "bending" the reeds to produce the missing notes using the diatonic harp, but have miserably failed. I prefer harps that have all the notes like the piano. So, I started Tremolo harps that have all the notes, even though they have an alternate tuning (different placement of reeds). I also like the standard "solo tuned" chromatic harps because they have all the notes as well.

[robertpcoble]

Gnarly asks:

Hey everybody, what's your favorite alternate tuning?

I play Circular (Zirkular - German; Spiral - Steve Baker) Tuned Seydel diatonics exclusively. (I'd try other brands if they made them as stock items - but they don't.) I have a Circular Tuned Seydel Deluxe Chromatic but it rarely gets played. I like having every note of the diatonic scale for 2.5 octaves (NO "missing" notes) without bending, but I can still bend as needed for "blue notes". I like having triads on every scale degree for accompaniment using true chords. I like being able to play major, minor and modal tunes on the same set of harmonicas. I like to play melody in bluegrass, gospel, folk and country - I don't (usually) play blues or blues riffs since I play in a (mainly) bluegrass band and in bluegrass jams. Works for ME!

Prior to Seydel's Harp Configurator and their stock line of alternative tunings (including Circular), I made my own using Lee Oskar major diatonics; now it's too much trouble. I'd rather just purchase them ready-made and play them. Rockin' Ron can usually get them to me in 2 weeks or less at a very reasonable price.

Crazy Bob

[Keith]

I like having every note of the diatonic scale for 2.5 octaves

That's just described the Seydel Orchestra-S....... although it is Solo tuned.

[robertpcoble]

Please look at all of the reasons I gave for choosing Circular Tuning. It was not limited to having all of the diatonic scale notes available (somewhere, in some order). As Smokey Joe has said, it has "one note at one address" throughout the entire range. The chordal possibilities are just as important as having all the notes (without having to bend to get them). My purpose is to be able to play melodically (with chording when required for accompaniment) in bluegass, country, gospel and folk music. If I want to play "bluesy," then half-step (and only half-step) bends are available to get the b3, b5 and b7 notes.

A comparison of Circular and Orchestra-S tunings:

Circular (labeled "G" based on blow note in hole 1; key = "C")

BLOW  G  B  D  F  A  C  E  G  B  D 
HOLE  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10
DRAW  A  C  E  G  B  D  F  A  C  E

Please note: There are no duplicated notes. Harmonized 3-note chords (triads) (from the underlying diatonic scale) are available on every scale degree starting in hole 1 blow.

Scale degree 1 (C) - C-E-G - I Chord (major; tonic)
Scale degree 2 (D) - D-F-A - ii chord (minor)
Scale degree 3 (E) - E-G-B - iii chord (minor)
Scale degree 4 (F) - F-A-C - IV Chord (major)
Scale degree 5 (G) - G-B-D - V Chord (major)
Scale degree 6 (A) - A-C-E - vi chord (minor; natural minor)
Scale degree 7 (B) - B-D-F - vii° chord (diminished)


Orchestra-S (labeled "C" based on blow note in hole 3; key = "C")

BLOW  G  C  C  E  G  C  C  E  G  C 
HOLE  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10
DRAW  A  B  D  F  A  B  D  F  A  B

There are several duplicated notes (to keep it synched with the solo tuning layout). There are only three chords:

Scale degree 1 (C) - C-E-G - I Chord (major; tonic)
Scale degree 2 (D) - D-F-A - ii chord (minor)
Scale degree 7 (B) - B-D-F - vii° chord (diminished)

If one is trying to prepare for playing solo tuned chromatic, then the Orchestra-S should be fine for that purpose.

Different strokes for different folks (who have different musical objectives in mind).

Regards,
Crazy Bob

[Keith]

Fair enough, you want lots of chords, I mainly just play melodies.

Thanks for including the note & chord layout of your Circular Tuned, as it makes more sense to me now.

[dougharps]

Thanks for a very clear and informative explanation of the advantages of Circular Tuning.


Doug S.

[robertpcoble]

Fair enough, you want lots of chords, I mainly just play melodies.

Thanks for including the note & chord layout of your Circular Tuned, as it makes more sense to me now.

Glad I could be of help. That's why I continue to (usually) lurk here on SlideMeister! It's one of the best resources for harmonicists, whether chromatic or diatonic!

I really wanted just melodic notes (and ALL of them, not "butchered" [MY not-so-humble opinion] in octaves 1 and 3 by the standard Richter tuning) when I first started investigating Circular Tuning. I could hit the "missing notes" with draw bends, but I can hear the timbre distinction between unbent and bent notes (whether listeners heard that difference, I don't know). It was only when I started playing regularly with others that I realized the opportunity to accompany using chords was also included - for free.

I play regularly in a local bluegrass band, the Zoo City Pickers (who have a Facebook page; take a look). I take a melodic break on just about every song. (That's at the other band members request.) However, I still want to contribute when others are taking a break, without distracting from their solo, so I play chords (softly, usually) while they are playing. Chording allows for some interesting sounds, such as when playing Life's Railway to Heaven; I also can get a nice train sound when I need it. Some of our songs are modal (played in Mixolydian mode), so it helps to know the music theory that allows me to pick a different harp that has all the notes I need to play the melody in that mode.

Regards,
Crazy Bob

[IaNerd]

Want a large set of highly useful major and minor chords in the first six holes of your slide harp?  See this:  http://www.brendan-power.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=274&p=1873#p1873