The "LeGato" Tuning

[Grizzly]

however, the breath exchanges, which I assume are less frequent than with solo tuning, to my ears add a certain inconsistency in articulation that would be less of an issue playing scales in solo tuning.

Tom are you arguing that more forced breath exchanges are a good thing?

Steve

I think by "forced" you mean "required"? In solo tuning, it just is. I'm used to it, and work with it rather than fight against it. I listen to Bonfiglio and Burger, and their breath exchanges are so fluid that I never get a sense of interruption in their phrasing.

Playing a scale all on one breath, as LeGato allows, requires slide movement, which can present its own problems. As Jason points out above, a G scale in dimi can be played with the same breath exchanges as in solo tuning. But how many slide movements does that represent in comparison?

Tradeoffs.

I'm not saying alternate tunings to solo tuning shouldn't be explored. Each has its unique advantages. I just don't want to lose track of the validity of solo tuning for those of us who use it and like it.  I may "come around" eventually, but I'm comfortable for now with solo tuning, even with its deficiencies. I've even got a harmonica available for potential conversion.

Tom

[Jason Rogers]

I'm not saying alternate tunings to solo tuning shouldn't be explored. Each has its unique advantages. I just don't want to lose track of the validity of solo tuning for those of us who use it and like it.

Hey Tom,

You don't think you have to defend solo tuning, do you? 

Believe me, I am not one who is losing track of the validity of solo tuning. 

I just heard Bonfiglio in a radio interview, where he played plenty of solo (a cappella) examples.  Wow!!!

There are so many solo tuned players that totally smoke anything I do on the dimi.  I heard a great video of Chris Bauer recently - great tone.  Slim's tone, and AJ's tone on Rugged Cross. 

Yeesh, and there are speed chops on solo tuned that blow away anything I can do on the dimi.  I have a Laurent Maur CD, cripes.  How about Yvonnick Prene? Fast, and lines that make sense.  And so many others.

No, none of this, for me, has ever been about discrediting another tuning.  To me, it's just an adventure to "chart uncharted territory".  And discussing the pros and cons is not about declaring a winner, but simply about trying to get a handle on, and articulate what various tunings are good at.  That's why I didn't mind making a video of stepwise major scales on the dimi when I don't really think it shows the dimi in its best light.

There are so many different kinds of players out here with so many different personalities that some tunings are just going to  fit some people better than others.

And...we all have so much more in common than there are differences, whether solo, legato, dimi, jazz, classical, etc...

Jason

[Grizzly]

Well said, Jason. I wish I'd heard the Bonfiglio interview.

Tom

[Jason Rogers]

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/episodes/2010/01/29

 

[jazmaan]

Mr. Bonfiglio was an early enthusiast and offered me much encouragement and insight regarding Fourkey diatonic tuning.    But I don't think he's even aware that I've migrated the tuning to chromatic harp.     I do know that his attitude re Fourkey diatonic was that it would be a supplement to Richter diatonic and/or Solo Chromatic, replacing neither.      I'm sure he would feel the same way about LeGato.   

There are many pros and cons to each of the tunings.   I think most of them are only of concern to the player.   But I do believe the LeGato tuning may make a difference to the listener, as it allows a style of play that sounds significantly different than other chromatic harps I've heard.

When Chesper avoids stepwise movement on the Dimi, he may be simultaneously emphasizing another kind of play at which the Dimi excels.  I would be curious to hear what the Dimi excels at and whether it also presents a novel listening experience to its audience when its played to its strengths.

I believe the LeGato's strengths happen to coincide pretty well (but not perfectly) with certain idiomatic riffs and phrases common to mainstream jazz.   That's not to say Solo Chromatic can't produce great jazz, but to my ears, its missing many of those classic riffs and licks, especially those that require whole step triplets.   So when you hear a Solo Chromatic playing jazz, its got a different flavor.   Not necessarily a bad flavor, but one that's not completely within the mainstream idiom.

[DimiDude]

As Jason points out above, a G scale in dimi can be played with the same breath exchanges as in solo tuning. But how many slide movements does that represent in comparison?

Depends on the key.  I was just trying to clarify that the number of breath exchanges is not a tradeoff with dimi.  You can maximize or minimize the breath exchanges. 

I chose dimi because I want to be equally fluent in every key.  I don't want to sound clean in C and sloppy in E major for example, even if I was playing standard tuning. 

Solo tuning is definitely better than dimi if one wants to only play in keys closely related to the key of the harp, and carry  multiple harps in different keys.  That's a perfectly valid approach - I think third position solo tuning (I mean playing a C chro in D minor/dorian) rules for blues.  'Gallison' and 'bebop' tuning would also be appropriate here.

I'm not saying alternate tunings to solo tuning shouldn't be explored. Each has its unique advantages. I just don't want to lose track of the validity of solo tuning for those of us who use it and like it.

Absolutely!  Sorry if I came off that way.  As I've said before, I don't think the tuning matters that much.  Eventually you want to get your breath exchanges, fake breath exchanges, and slide movements down pat no matter what tuning you use, and the facility with which the player can do those things ultimately matters more than the tuning.

Steve

[DimiDude]

But I do believe the LeGato tuning may make a difference to the listener

I can't comment on LeGato (but I do want to try it someday).  My personal opinion on dimi vs. solo is that the differences matter more to the player and not much to the listener, at least for single note playing.  To me that's the way it should be - a non-harmonica playing listener shouldn't really notice or care about slide movements, breath exchanges, etc if one's technique is good enough.  (Mine's not yet!)

Caveats:
When you start talking about double stops and chords then you get into stuff that is obviously noticeable to the listener.  Certain chords and double stops can only be played with certain tunings.  I think half-valved bends are also noticeable to the listener.  They sound bluesier.  Certain tunings allow for more half valved bends, so in that sense the tuning would matter to the listener (if one uses those bends a lot).

Steve

[Jason Rogers]

When Chesper avoids stepwise movement on the Dimi,

To be clear, stepwise motion is often convenient on the dimi - a fully intervallic style would have its challenges. 

It's staying *strictly diatonic* that's more of a challenge.  I think we would all agree that playing a simple but fast diatonic melody would be easier on the home key of solo tuning than on a dimi. 

In the same way, improvising diatonic melodies with nothing else thrown may not be what the dimi does best.  Not for me, anyway.

J

[DimiDude]

improvising diatonic melodies with nothing else thrown may not be what the dimi does best. 

It's not what solo tuning does best either, at least in the 11 non-home keys.  Diatonic rules for diatonic playing.  I'm a chro newbie, so I don't really know what I'm talking about yet.  However I think (hope?) that one can get comfortable in all the keys (no matter what tuning you use), and that with time using the slide will become second nature.  If I thought that using the slide often was a problem I wouldn't be playing slide harp!  I'm not trying to defend dimi tuning here - I'm just trying to rebut the notion that having to use the slide is a problem.  Well, it is a problem at first but I think it's a solvable one.

Woodwinds have 'home' keys as well.  For the first few years after I started playing oboe I couldn't imagine sight reading or improvising in keys like E major.  All that key pressing and switching - ugh!  A few years later I had an interesting experience.  A friend of mine asked me to improvise a solo for a song he wrote.  I noodled around and played just fine - no wrong notes and I felt completely fluent.  The next day I reflected on the experience and realized the song was in C# minor (relative of E major), one of the keys I previously thought was impossible!  Of course I knew what the key was when I was playing it, but I forgot that it was supposed to be a 'difficult' key.  I was also reading parts in orchestra in E or whatever without too much difficulty (well, not much more difficulty that I had reading in C).  And I wasn't a brilliant player or anything.  With time though I learned to push those buttons cleanly (for the most part) and at the right time, without thinking about it.  I have to believe I can do the same on the chromatic.  I'm already seeing lot's of progress.

Steve 

(Note - I had lot's of problems with oboe: reed making, endurance, tone production, etc.  But pressing the keys at the right time wasn't one of them, at least not after a few years playing.)

[Gnarly He Man]

There's a handful of keys on solo (well, bebop tuned solo) tuned chrom where diatonic improv works--mostly flat keys, but also G.
G

[Grizzly]

Steve, Joe Leone (Smo-Joe) has a great perspective on harmonica regardless of tuning, and it corresponds in significant ways to any woodwind.

Each note has its own place on harmonica, its own hole, slide position and breath direction. It doesn't change. They're always there where they should be; they don't migrate.

Oboe (I'm a flutist, and can relate) doesn't have breath direction or slide issues, and may be harder to learn than other winds from that standpoint. But once learned, they don't change. Just like thumb-one-two-three is always G, blow-3-slide-out is always G on (solo tuned) chromatic harmonica.

On flute, fingerings change in the third octave. On clarinet, each octave has different fingerings. Not so on chromatic harmonica. Octaves duplicate. What a great boon for us!

Remote keys on harmonica can be daunting. But even after 55 years, I'm not comfortable in F# or Gb or even B on flute. Then again, how many times are we called upon to play in those strange keys? Right now, I'm working on getting more familiar with the more familiar keys on harmonica. Always a challenge. I like challenge.

Tom

[DimiDude]

Each note has its own place on harmonica, its own hole, slide position and breath direction. It doesn't change. They're always there where they should be; they don't migrate.

Exactly!  It seems daunting at first but eventually those 'fingerings' become ingrained.  I approach the harmonica the same as a woodwind in that regard.  As you know woodwinds have alternate fingerings for the same note which is analogous to enharmonics on the harmonica.  Confusing at first but you learn to deal with it.  Practicing scales helps.

Using dimi I'm unconsciously developing two approaches:  when reading, or improvising with written chord charts, I'm in 'woodwind mode'.  I think of the note I want to play ("B flat") and my mind recalls the 'fingering' (hole, slide position, breath direction) for that note.  On the other hand, sometimes I can think 'positionally'.  The dimi only has three positions.  C and E flat are the same position for example.  So when playing in E flat I can pretend I'm playing in C.  Surprisingly this positional playing is a bit harder for me right now.  I have to force myself to forget the hole number and think positionally.  It breaks down when I get close to either end of the harp.  If I'm playing in E flat but thinking in C and I'm at the bottom of the harp I sometimes go down to hole 1 blow (which is C) when I'm thinking 'C', but the plan was for an E flat to sound whenever I think I'm playing C.  I need to think more intervalically (is that a word) I guess.

Steve

[Grizzly]

What you said, Steve. Transposing at sight also takes a strong grounding in intervals. I've tried pretending I was playing a D harmonica to read through music written in D. Playing in first position, like a C harmonica, but looking at a tune in D, is a real challenge. With just three choices, maybe a dimi tuned harmonica would be an advantage.

Tom

[DimiDude]

Transposing at sight also takes a strong grounding in intervals. I've tried pretending I was playing a D harmonica to read through music written in D. Playing in first position, like a C harmonica, but looking at a tune in D, is a real challenge. With just three choices, maybe a dimi tuned harmonica would be an advantage.

Unfortunately I've never really done much transposing.  A disadvantage of playing a 'C' instrument I guess.  I think a dimi would have only a slight advantage.  Transposing by a minor third (or tritone, major sixth) should be easy enough because it's the same 'position'. 

I haven't started this yet, but my plan is to go back through the oboe etudes I'm working on and transpose each of them into two different keys, to work on each etude in each 'position'.  One disadvantage of using an oboe book as opposed to a flute book is that you don't get as much work on the right side of the harmonica.  Transposing to higher keys should help remedy that.  (It won't help with ledger line reading though!  As an oboist my eyes tend to glaze over whenever I see more than 4 ledger lines above the staff.  I don't know how you flute players keep track!)

Steve

[jazmaan]

Each note has its own place on harmonica, its own hole, slide position and breath direction. It doesn't change. They're always there where they should be; they don't migrate.

Unless you're playing a LeGato in which case 8 out of 12 notes have TWO holes, TWO slide positions and TWO breath directions!

[samtheman]

Okay, here I am again to check if I have this right.  I'm sorry if I seem a little slow on the uptake with this but I guess I am.  I'm trying to put an order in on Seydel for my LeGato.  I think I have the upper and lower plates right this time but the octaves are still making me a little unsure.  Here's the first row as I've configured it with the octave numbers:

C4    D4   F4      G4  A4    C5   D5    F5   G5    A5   C6     D6

What's confusing me is "A4".  On this reed I have A4 or A5 as choices and I can't figure out where the octaves begin and end with this system.  Since I have it set as A4 will this A be lower than the C,D, F,G that precede it?

The second row is easier because "B4" is the only choice; the tops off at "A5".
C#4  E4   F#4   G#4 B4    C#5 E5    F#5  G#5 B5    C#6   E6

This goes for the 3rd row too; no two choices present themselves on any reed:
C#4    D#4   F#4    G#4  A#4    C#5  D#5    F#5   G#5   A#5   C#6    D#6

But on the last row, once again I have two choices on the number 5 reed:
C4  F4  G4  A4  C4  D5  F5  G5  A5  C5  D6  F6

I know there is a logic to this that I am not getting.  But I just want to order this thing and then maybe down the line I can figure out how the octave numbering system works on Seydels configurator in a more comprehensive way.  For now I'd appreciate it if one of you guys could check this out and tell me if I have it right.  Thanks.

Sam  

[Grizzly]

Seydel's configurator is in either International or German systems to identify pitch. Here is a snippet from the instructions:

N.B. Middle C = C4

Scales figure from C to B, with the next scale starting with the letter (C) followed by the next number up.

A standard 12 hole chromatic starts on Middle C (the center of the Grand Staff, consisting of treble and bass clefs), which is C4. The note below is B3. The next octave C (hole 4/5) is C5. If you tried to put an A5 in the middle of a C4 scale, I bet the configurator would stop you.

In the last string you listed, you have two C4s. That's not possible. The number five reed has to be C5, because it's in the next octave. Your first string is correct. A4 is higher than C4 and lower than C5.
Tom

[roady43]

I'm not saying alternate tunings to solo tuning shouldn't be explored. Each has its unique advantages. I just don't want to lose track of the validity of solo tuning for those of us who use it and like it.

Hey Tom,

You don't think you have to defend solo tuning, do you? 
<<<
There are so many solo tuned players that totally smoke anything I do on the dimi.  I heard a great video of Chris Bauer recently - great tone.  Slim's tone, and AJ's tone on Rugged Cross. 

Yeesh, and there are speed chops on solo tuned that blow away anything I can do on the dimi.  I have a Laurent Maur CD, cripes.  How about Yvonnick Prene? Fast, and lines that make sense.  And so many others.

No, none of this, for me, has ever been about discrediting another tuning.  To me, it's just an adventure to "chart uncharted territory".  And discussing the pros and cons is not about declaring a winner, but simply about trying to get a handle on, and articulate what various tunings are good at.  That's why I didn't mind making a video of stepwise major scales on the dimi when I don't really think it shows the dimi in its best light.

There are so many different kinds of players out here with so many different personalities that some tunings are just going to fit some people better than others.

And...we all have so much more in common than there are differences, whether solo, legato, dimi, jazz, classical, etc...

Jason

 Absolutely agreeing with what you say, here comes my very personal statement:

Solo tuning is a clever compromise and I think was invented or developed from the idea, how to be able to play full chromatically on a diatonic harp:  take two diatonic harps (reedplates) offset by a halftone, mount them on one comb and separate them by a slider. Thinking that any sharp or flat is OFF C major makes it very easy to play: just push the button! Depending on the effort of practising and studying this system let 99.99% of all harmonica players become more or less excellent solo tuning players. For the other 0.01% of alternate tuning players it is exactly the same: it's always a question of effort how well one masters the system.

What I personally really like most in the discussion about alternative tunings (I was reading all these threads since the beginning) is the multiplicity for individual needs AND the chance to brake through the C major system. For me the "thinking in C" is just to dominating and leaves to heavy tracks and limitations during the musical development of a beginner which must be overcome by new efforts when a certain level is reached. Music is much more and much richer than just C major or OFF C major. I think for a beginner this can be a handicap although I know that it is very easy to understand but for me personally it was a big chance NOT to start with solo tuning, which I never will regret...

roady43

[Grizzly]

I see what you mean, roady. When I taught elementary instrumental music, I'd have C flutes, Bb clarinets and cornets, and Eb alto saxes, all playing the same scale but in different keys. Start adding flats for a new key, and invariably they'd go to the default B/A/F# that they'd learned first. It takes awhile, sometimes a long while, to get over it. But the better ones do.

At least in solo tuning, every note's "address," as Joey says, is unique, with the exception of two enharmonics. Sharps are easier (button in!) than flats to suss out. Each scale is unique, although some are very similar (C and Db, for instance). With dimi, there are only three scale patterns, which could be an advantage; but as someone pointed out, sightreading may suffer if you lose your place. And dimidude points out that LeGato tuning has many more choices on enharmonics, in which case I imagine it's best to choose a default set of scales and stick to them before venturing out into the enharmonics, especially for sightreading.

I can't think of any other wind instrument that offers so many options!

Tom

[samtheman]

Seydel's configurator is in either International or German systems to identify pitch. Here is a snippet from the instructions:

N.B. Middle C = C4

Scales figure from C to B, with the next scale starting with the letter (C) followed by the next number up.

A standard 12 hole chromatic starts on Middle C (the center of the Grand Staff, consisting of treble and bass clefs), which is C4. The note below is B3. The next octave C (hole 4/5) is C5. If you tried to put an A5 in the middle of a C4 scale, I bet the configurator would stop you.

In the last string you listed, you have two C4s. That's not possible. The number five reed has to be C5, because it's in the next octave. Your first string is correct. A4 is higher than C4 and lower than C5.
Tom

Thanks Tom

[jazmaan]

Ok, here are some scales.   I ran out of time before I could do all 12 scales.   I was just picking scales at random so these aren't even necessarily the easiest or the toughest scales.    I think I got F#, A, D, C#, Ab, Bb, and B.   Don't even know why I forgot to do C.


Oops, the previous link was broken.  Try this one:

[jazmaan]

Okay, here I am again to check if I have this right.  I'm sorry if I seem a little slow on the uptake with this but I guess I am.  I'm trying to put an order in on Seydel for my LeGato.  I think I have the upper and lower plates right this time but the octaves are still making me a little unsure.  Here's the first row as I've configured it with the octave numbers:

C4    D4   F4      G4  A4    C5   D5    F5   G5    A5   C6     D6

What's confusing me is "A4".  On this reed I have A4 or A5 as choices and I can't figure out where the octaves begin and end with this system.  Since I have it set as A4 will this A be lower than the C,D, F,G that precede it?

The second row is easier because "B4" is the only choice; the tops off at "A5".
C#4  E4   F#4   G#4 B4    C#5 E5    F#5  G#5 B5    C#6   E6

This goes for the 3rd row too; no two choices present themselves on any reed:
C#4    D#4   F#4    G#4  A#4    C#5  D#5    F#5   G#5   A#5   C#6    D#6

But on the last row, once again I have two choices on the number 5 reed:
C4  F4  G4  A4  C4  D5  F5  G5  A5  C5  D6  F6

I know there is a logic to this that I am not getting.  But I just want to order this thing and then maybe down the line I can figure out how the octave numbering system works on Seydels configurator in a more comprehensive way.  For now I'd appreciate it if one of you guys could check this out and tell me if I have it right.  Thanks.

Sam  

The bottom row in the Seydel Configurator is Draw SLIDE IN and it should go:

D4 F4 G4 A4 C5 D5 F5 G5 A5 C6 D6 F6

Notice that it starts on D4  not C4 like you have in your post.

[Gnarly He Man]

Interesting to hear you go "wah" just with the embouchure . . .
You gotta smile more tho 
Gary
PS B major is easy on bebop tuning as it is Bb with the button in, so only one non button note.
G

[Grizzly]

A thought occurred to me this morning (dangerous, I know) that there is an instrument that has lots of "enharmonics"; it's not really classified as a wind instrument, but it does rely on the passage of air to move the reeds. It is, of course, the English concertina. Notes are the same on the push and on the pull, and it is fully chromatic to boot.

The other side of the coin is the anglo concertina. It's set up like a harmonica, with the notes of the scale alternating on the push and the pull. Chords (unlike the English, which has none except by combining buttons) are separate buttons under the left hand. Although diatonic, some have more rows of buttons for different keys, giving some chromatic notes.

So there you have it; parallels to the harmonica world!

Tom

[samtheman]

Okay guys - I finally got mine ordered.  Thanks for your help with the configurator. 

Sam

[jazmaan]

Ok, here are some scales.   I ran out of time before I could do all 12 scales.   I was just picking scales at random so these aren't even necessarily the easiest or the toughest scales.    I think I got F#, A, D, C#, Ab, Bb, and B.   Don't even know why I forgot to do C.


Oops, the previous link was broken.  Try this one:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjYc5lqxLsc

This link may not be around for too long.   If I have time I'm going to redo this video over the weekend and include the scales I left out.   So please check it out now and let me know how I can make it better.   (And for Gnarly, I'll try to smile more!)  Thanks.

[Jason Rogers]

Hey Jaz,

Sorry it took so long to respond.  Things got really busy all of a sudden these last couple of days.  I'm still here...

The video was really fun to hear.  It's a good demo that really does give a sense of the layout.  It really does have a different sound to it, with all that same breath direction stuff.  And on so many different keys.  Very interesting.

I'm looking forward to a video where you play some of your musical phrases as well, if you get a chance.

Good stuff man, thanks,

J

PS.  why redo the video?  Just make another with the additional scales?

[Gnarly He Man]

(And for Gnarly, I'll try to smile more!)

It's a harmonica player joke.
If you wear shades and a hat while playing harp, even your mother won't recognize you.
G

[jazmaan]

Why redo the video?   Because I didn't shave and was wearing a dirty old T-Shirt and my face was too close to the camera!  Also I did all those scales in random order with no rhyme or reason instead of going up the circle of fifths or by half steps.   Also I didn't say enough to explain the layout to people who have never heard of "LeGato" before.

One thing I did want to comment on was that Bb, Eb, Ab, Db are what I would call "all-blow" keys,  while A, D, G and C are "All-Draw" keys.   Notice how they're sequenced around the Circle of Fifths!
   
E, F, & F# are mixed blow/draw but offer complete chords.   

And finally B is mixed with no chord, but with that odd convergence of breath change matching button change.  (Credit to OldStudent for noticing that!)
.
Isn't this stuff fascinating?

[Gnarly He Man]

Don't forget the hat
G