Bebop Tuning on the Chromatic Harmonica

[Eugene]

Oh an all-bending chrom... the holy grail really.  I'd pay for that 

Not to take away from the bebop thread, but yes, those half-valved bends on the MOLT tunings are indeed tasty. I didn't go down that road initially due to the slight difference in feel between full-valved and half-valved, but now I couldn't live without them - for expression and enharmonic notes.

Back to bebop, Bill Barrett beats believin'.

[Gnarly He Man]

It's too late for me, I can't go dimi now--I'm 63 . . .
Ho boys, here's the video of what I plan to present at SPAH.

[SlideMeister]

Yeah, me too. I was about that age when G (from New Zealand) sent me a dimi tuned 260 to try. To be fair, G really did a phenomenal job on the thing, and I felt terrible about sending it back cuz I couldn't do a thing with it. That's when I realized learning a new tuning (while probably cool) would have set me back twenty years.  I still think if I were starting out today (as a younger dude of course) I would probably go with Dimi, augi, slippy or whatever tuning on a ten or twelve hole Chromatic.

[SlideMeister]

The only downside I can think of is that no one just makes them except maybe Seydel (on a special order) and if yours needs some kind of service, you're hosed unless you have a spare, cuz standard tuning won't be too easy to just "fall" into while you wait to fix yours or have it fixed by some harumka tech.

[Bluesy]

Crawforde said, "If anything is better than bebop it is Orchestra Bebop tuning."

You're right! I have a nice Seydel Deluxe Orchestra (12 holes) that the company bebopped for me. Bottom note is a G. Has a translucent, dark comb, SS covers and a round-hole mouthpiece that I installed to replace the cheese grater. Just terrific for ballads and other jazz standards. The extra notes below are wonderful.

Bluesy/

[Eugene]

Yeah, me too. I was about that age when G (from New Zealand) sent me a dimi tuned 260 to try. To be fair, G really did a phenomenal job on the thing, and I felt terrible about sending it back cuz I couldn't do a thing with it.

Hey Age, I'm pretty sure it was the same harp that G sent to me later... I think that was the first one I tried. So it got some use...

[Jason Rogers]

Just a thought on trying out the Dimi.  (Not directed at you A.J., just my thoughts in general).

The Dimi has the potential to seem a little thorny on the surface, meaning that if one picks it up and tries to play melodies - diatonic or tonal melodies on it especially - it can be confusing. 

That doesn't mean it can't be done by ear and using the "hunt and peck", or trial and error method.

It's just that the notes on the Diminished are kind of "scrambled", as compared to the diatonic modes, so it's not that easy to find those tonal melodies built-in, or ready-made.

In addition, the 4 enharmonics can be confusing.  When a melody is found to be playable in a number of different holes and breath patterns, it may be harder to remember how to play it.

If learning the Dimi were to be approached by the "beginner" (or someone new to the Dimi) more along the lines of how any other instrument is learned, it would be easier.  For example, in a beginner trumpet book, you would learn the fingering of each note.  Then you would combine these into scales, and then play basic melodies.  Eventually you get used to it, and and that point, it's easy to play by ear, read music, etc.

In teaching the Dimi, I happen to start with 4-note patterns.  There are only three (with one alternate), and then these are combined into scales.  The "fingering", or breath-and-slide patterns of these 4-note patterns are very similar to ones on Solo tuning.  I introduce the enharmonics very gradually, and they can without a doubt be mastered.

I estimate it took me 3 years to learn the notes on the Dimi.  Actually, I could play some things sooner, and I still learned a lot after that, but 3 years was roughly where I could finally start improvising and playing melodies by ear without screwing up.  This seems like a long time to me, and it was because I was in uncharted territory.

Every case is different, but I believe that an accomplished harmonica player who picks up the Dimi and follows an organized approach can be playing the Dimi in a year.

One important point, I think, is that once the initial hurdle of acclimating to the notes is overcome, the Dimi proves to be very practical for playing tonal melodies.  The Dimi also expands very well into playing more chromatic melodies.  And, of course, it works quite well for playing in all keys.

The Dimi can be daunting on the surface, but becomes more and more practical and user-friendly as the player gains familiarity.

[Gnarly He Man]

I agree with Jason--although the Yeadon dimi is closer to standard tuning, and so is more intuitive, the standard dimi tuning has more charm, affords the player greater facility.
I still ain't budgin' . . .

[Jp]

Hm... Gnarly, how is Yeadon's more intuitive?

"Standard":

C	Eb	Gb	A
D	F	Ab	B

"Yeadon":

C#	E	G	Bb
D	F	Ab	B

[Gnarly He Man]

"Bebop":

C	E	G	Bb
D	F	A	B

"Yeadon":

C#	E	G	Bb
D	F	Ab	B

[Jp]

I was hoping for more of what you personally find "more intuitive"
(for example, I would find not having C as a slide out note "not intuitive")

[Gnarly He Man]

Only two notes of the bebop tuning are changed to create the Yeadon tuning--that means it's very similar.
I guess that's what I mean.

"Bebop":

C	E	G	Bb
D	F	A	B

"Yeadon":

C#	E	G	Bb
D	F	Ab	B

What isn't intuitive is the fact that blow and draw are a half step apart.

[Jason Rogers]

I see your point Gary.  Yeadon is somewhat similar to Bebop.

Gnarly said:

Yeadon dimi is closer to standard tuning, and so is more intuitive, the standard dimi tuning has more charm, affords the player greater facility.

The only thing I might differ with you, with regards to wording:

Let's assume that you are correct, that Yeadon is more intuitive for a person transitioning from Bebop.

That doesn't mean that Yeadon is more intuitive than Dimi as a self-contained system. 

So do we value alternate layouts that have a minimal amount of variance from the traditional? 

Or do we find the best possible solution, whatever it may be, and learn that from the ground up?

It fully depends on where we are coming from, what our requirements are, etc.  They are both right.

In the case of the standard Dimi, there are actually more similarities than it seems on the surface.  But I advocate learning it from the ground up, as I said earlier.  Once you know the Dimi, you can still go back and play Solo.

[Gnarly He Man]

Hoo boy, here goes . . .
I play a lot of different altered tunings, but not all of them get practice--so I don't "know" what I am doing, especially at first.
This can be true for diatonic and chromatic--chromatic adds the button.
I don't prefer the Yeadon tuning, after having examined both, but do see that there are self-evident similarities with bebop, which is the chromatic tuning I have settled.
Changing between alternate tunings is not the pathway to master, but you can get results--kind of like playing a different key chromatic for different keys (D for D, G for G etc.)

[Jason Rogers]

Gnarlsburg,

I get it!  You play a number of tunings, and it's more practical to have similarities...

Bebop is an awesome tuning in its own right.  Will be at your seminar if I can swing it to get to SPAH this year!

I'm also glad you offer your re-tuning services for all altered layouts.  We need you!

J

[Gnarly He Man]

Thanks Jason, I like to think I am helping . . .

[Gnarly He Man]

Attached please find what I believe is the official version. I will print out some copies and have them at the seminar.
In doing my final draft, I found documents by Pat Missin and Winslow Yerxa. They cover the same topic, just as well or better--but I did not copy them.
http://www.angelfire.com/music/HarpOn/patsmusings.html
http://archive.harmonicasessions.com/feb10/Yerxa.pdf

[SlideMeister]

Just got my newly "Bebopped" cheap Swan 1248-7 back from Gnarley. First time I ever player that tuning. Different but also v-e-r-y intriguing. I may hafta spend some time working with it.

Thanx Gar !!

@ge
><((((º>

[Gnarly He Man]

It is a privilege and a pleasure and an honor!

[streetlegal]

It will be interesting to hear how AJ finds the Hole 4 alteration changes playing in other keys. For me this is the real advantage of an amended solo tuning - especially in the provision of the blow B and Bb reeds. This of course transforms the layout of the B and Bb scales - but also tends to balance out the layout of other scales in which those notes fall.

I play C Major 7 flatslide - rather than the 'bebop' C7 - so my layout is different, but the advantages work out in a similar kind of way.

[Gnarly He Man]

AJ has played for so many years (ages) so old habits die hard.
I await a preliminary report, but expect any real benefits to take a little longer.

[Bluesy]

Just got my newly "Bebopped" cheap Swan 1248-7 back from Gnarley. First time I ever player that tuning. Different but also v-e-r-y intriguing. I may hafta spend some time working with it.

Thanx Gar !!

@ge
><((((º>

In three weeks you won't want to ever play "solo" tuning again, Arthur!

Tom/

[SlideMeister]

Hardly notice any difference in C except for maybe the redundant B flatz; other keys are a different story. Still intriguing

[Rob Fletcher]

Sorry if I missed this fairly obvious bit of info, but I couldn't find it on the thread - what exactly are the notes of bebop tuning?

[Gnarly He Man]

https://forums.SlideMeister.com/index.php?topic=12885.msg155046#msg155046

"Bebop tuning changes the "last" C note to Bb, the 7th of the C scale."

So 
Blow   C   E   G   Bb   
Hole   1   2   3   4   
Draw   D   F   A   B 

[jazmaan]

After at least a five year absence when I'd only been playing "LeGato" Fourkey chromatic tuning,  yesterday I pulled out my Eb CX-12 in Bebop Tuning.   

I'll admit some trepidation in that switching between chromatic tunings isn't as easy for me as switching between diatonic tunings.  But I was pleasantly surprised that it only took a couple of hours to adjust and now I'm starting to "get" Bebop tuning again.

I went to the overblow.com website to get a note layout on their Scalefinder, but that website seems to be borked.

Anyway, here's my question.  Among people who have tried both Bebop and Solo tuning but decided they liked Solo tuning better - - Why?    What do you perceive as the disadvantages of Bebop Tuning (other than you can't easily buy one off the shelf.)

[SlideMeister]

I'm still in the deciding stage, I guess. Actually I like them both.   I spoze I'll decide one of these days. If I awoke one day to find that one tuning or the other was a crime punishable with a five year prison term, I wouldn't go into "civil disobedience" mode.

[jazmaan]

Reading some of the earlier posts here,  I see that Brendan's only gripe with Bebop tuning seems to be that its not as good for half-valving as Solo.   Personally,  I don't care for half-valving on chromatics so that's not an issue for me.   I'll say that I've also tried William Galison's Major 6th tuning and while the 6th chord is nice if you're playing in the tonic key,  otherwise the dominant 7th of Bebop tuning is fine by me.   Chromatic harmonica chording is always going to be dicey anyway.   For single note play I prefer Bebop tuning over "Galison" tuning.

[Crawforde]

The slide harmonica I play the most right now (Easttop tenor) is not bebopped, but probably will be soon. That easily available Bb will be very useful for Bass lines and playing in common Jazz keys.
I am tempted to retune my old bebop harp to C6 as I seem to always head for Scottish and Irish tunes with that one and the diatonic scale is probably better for folk tunes that are more likely to stay in Key.  Playing a solo again is OK , but those repeated C notes throw me off a bit and it just feels better going straight for a Bb than having  to sharpen  the A for it.

[Bluesy]

I have all my chromes bebop-tuned even before I blow them. Sissi Augustine does it on the east coast. Gary Lehmann does it on the west coast.