Hitting the wall

[Scotty]

Age list impressive but phrasing at number 5 ?

I have realized that phrasing is crucial to execution because:

phrasing is usually based on chord structure
chord structure suggests acceptable notes

In a broader sense, I think of it as “hearing” the key .
I am in trouble if I can’t hear the key or the phrasing.

Phrasing is also part of my preference for reading sheet music
which is a natural feature of the notation.

PS I’m still trying to figure out how to practice Irish music slow !

Yeah. The truth is, working on your phrasing isn't practical (more accurately - doesn't really happen  ) until your playing (with the right, clean notes & timing and stuff) can be done like chewing gum while walking. Until you can "shelve" your concentration of notes and stuff, (cuz it's automatically going on in the background) you aren't ready for phrasing. Think about it: Phrasing just kinda happens as your playing becomes "less strained."

I'm with you! 'timing and rhythm, timing and rhythm, timing and rhythm, timing and rhythm'. Repeat as necessary until it sinks in. For me, it happens only if you LISTEN WITH BIG EARS to music as much as is humanly possible. You develop timing and rhythm by hearing, feeling music in your bones; by listening to music and being able to distinguish the different instruments (not just the harmonica or the vocalist). Listen to the bass, listen to the drums, listen to each and every instrument in the recording. Play it back over and over until you can hear what each is doing individually and as a whole. When it works, it's fantastic when you finally 'hear'. Then feel the underlying beat. MOVE to it, even if you can't get up, you can move a toe, tap a foot, move an arm, or shoulder, or neck or head. This is all part of timing and rhythm. Then play WITH the beat (or slightly behind, which is something I prefer to do).

scotty

[SaxonyFan]

I agree with Scotty on rhythm work. It’s something that most players, outside of bassist and drummers, tend to neglect. Sometimes when soloing I feel uncomfortable on 12/8 rhythms (shuffles). So recently I have been working on tapping out subdivisions against 12/8. The challenging ones come naturally only when I DON’T think about them. It’s kind of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle of Rhythm and Counting.

Michael Brecker highly recommended that every soloist take rudimentary drum lessons.

[Gnarly He Man]

There is this 12/8 thing in Latin music that is so fun for me--goes back and forth between 3 and 4.
And then there is America, from West Side Story.
Sorry, as you were.

[cisco]

I just had a scary thought.
Most replies so far probably assume that subject music
is also MEMORIZED prior to any speed trials!

Unfortunately, I specialize in being a sheet music sight
reader but that may be counter productive in this case.

@SCOTTY

My method book author goes as far as using the term
“train your brain”.  His method so far has been very annoying

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4956660/


but pretty accurate!

So, now I have to play the music from memory for speed as the goal?
What’s next 😝 ?

[Scotty]

@SCOTTY

My method book author goes as far as using the term
“train your brain”.  His method so far has been very annoying

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4956660/
[/quote]
I thought you were going to post a link from your 'method book'? Instead you post something from psychology. ok. I believe most of my 'training my
brain' took place as I played chromatic from the ages of 4 through 15. I somehow built-in all the muscle memory I needed, which has now 'mostly' returned in different ways when I came back to playing after decades away. However, I can't remotely help if you're playing purely from reading sheet music since I play purely by ear. Fwiw, I can't imagine ANY speed being available if one is learning by reading--at least until tons of time and practice
has been put in. I think you've gotten good advice: begin slow and keep playing the same passages over and over until you can play them faster.

I could play at some speed right now if I chose--I don't choose, since only a few of the songs I like to play are at a faster speed. Most are not. Glen
Campbell's 'Gentle On My Mind' (as he played it) is probably what I consider 'moderate speed', if you google it. I believe what you have to do is build muscle memory by repetition, and listening to music a lot if you want to play any music successfully. At some point the brain makes the connection (I'm assuming) between the notes on the page and the sounds you're hearing. I 'can' read music to a degree - for piano, but don't for the chromatic. Just doesn't work for me.  But I can 'hear in my head' before I sit down at the piano or keyboards exactly what the notes I'm about to play will sound like, and individually--and their names. I'm a bit ashamed to admit it since, for me, there seems to be a mental block in translating this to chromatic harmonica, so I stick to playing it (and most instruments) by ear - which I far prefer to do.

Do what works for YOU, but I'd hesitate to rely too much on books. You've been at this for a while and I think you have to begin to trust your ear a bit more --hear the notes as you play them. Perhaps try to pick out a simple song (happy birthday or any nursery rhyme or something else fairly repetitive) and keep playing it until you can do so without following along from a page. Perhaps that's 'training your brain' (or at least your memory) That's how my own seems to work.   If a person can hum, sing or whistle Happy Birthday, it seems inconceivable to me that they would not be able to then be able to play it on a harmonica by picking out the notes.

scotty

[cisco]

I was sloppy about the misplaced site reference in a previous
post so I studied the posts again, including your remarks.
Guess what?  You intuitively touched on some basics of
academic (mental) incubation. Or, as one of our esteemed members
might say, “The brain has a mind of its own.” 😄
I would only add that the mental contribution can develop over
extended periods of time according to researchers.

Oh yeah, I once posted that I found the harmonica a
difficult instrument to learn compared to a piano, all at the entry level.
The guaranteed 5 minutes to harmonica fame YouTube videos don’t work!

[Grizzly]

"So, now I have to play the music from memory for speed as the goal?
What’s next 😝 ?"

Perhaps. I found when I resumed playing chromatic harmonica after many years that by the time I'd gotten any good on a particular tune, I had it memorized. THEN I could speed it up, if gradually.

I think it would be the same for any beginner, even reading music on a new instrument. I say that because I read with great facility, because of my background playing flute (66 years now). So over time, with improving skill, the more familiar scales, broken chords (arpeggios) and patterns become ingrained. "Training your brain," so to speak.It's not so much that you'll memorize certain tunes, which you still can and should do, but you've memorized the way of playing the instrument.

The bottom line is that learning to read music involves a lot of memorization, too. Rare people like Scotty learned early on how to play quickly anything she can hear, without incessantly repeating to listen to the tune. People like me learned to play by ear concurrently with learning to read standard notation. I don't just read, or play by ear, I read by ear.

Tom

[cisco]

Perhaps my challenge now is to memorize something SLOW !
Even that might be revealing.!

PS i consider the flute to be perhaps at the pinnacle of great instruments.

[brorat]

I have a small book on punctuation.  Here's a quote from the book jacket:

"A panda walks into a cafe.  He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.
"Why", asks the waiter, as the panda makes towards the exit.  The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.
"I'm a panda," he says, at the door.  "Look it up."
The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.
"PANDA.  Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China.  Eats, shoots and leaves."

[SlideMeister]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!.

[Edward Brock]

PS i consider the flute to be perhaps at the pinnacle of great instruments.
[/quote]

I feel the same way about the Kazoo drum. 

[Scotty]

I have a small book on punctuation.  Here's a quote from the book jacket:

"A panda walks into a cafe.  He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.
"Why", asks the waiter, as the panda makes towards the exit.  The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.
"I'm a panda," he says, at the door.  "Look it up."
The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.
"PANDA.  Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China.  Eats, shoots and leaves."

LOL!  He coudda used a pool table. All depends on interpretation as well.

scotty

[Piccolo Pete]

Hahaha! Good one brorat! Humor and laughter are good medicine.

[BigDogDaddyD]

I am a beginner about to become a retired beginner.  My problem is speed or tempo.
I will soon get past waltzes and ballads only to collide with ethnic music, etc.   
How can I approach this issue ( “play faster “ not acceptable ! )

Hey Cisco... Always glad to hear others have the same problems I have.  And like most of the time, many smarter people than me have already found a solution to my problem(s).  I can't say I have a solution, but I have opinions.  And I can tell you what works for me (and probably others as well). Some of these helpful solution have already been mentioned here by players far better than me.  (1) Use a metronome - software or old fashion hardware.  Start it slow and work your way up faster as you get better with the tune.  (2)  Play along with the song as you learn.  A recording of the tune works well.  Or use a microphone hooked to a PC or tape recorder, or your cell phone to record it from a source.  Or use the same tools to sing it or whistle it.  Then play to that recording (note-record yourself playing as well - always good to review your work).  (3) Another member mentioned the great little program Slow Downer.  It works great.  You can slow down and speed up the song, and also transpose to different keys.  But it costs $50 for PC/Mac, $15 for iPhone, and $10 for Android.  There are several programs out there that do it all for free.  AUDACITY is one.  Private message me and I'll be happy to send you a list.  (4) Once you have the tune down, play it to backing tracks or karaoke while you play the lead.  Many of these can be found online for free.  Youtube has a lot.  Again, if you get a recording, you can feed it into a program to slow it down, speed it up, change keys, etc...  And hopefully while you're doing all this practicing, you're memorizing the song so you can play it from memory when you're at the speed you want to be.  Hope this helps.  Have a good journey.

[Piccolo Pete]

Hahah!

[cisco]

 @BigDog

Your post covered a lot of ground!
I try to identify my main weaknesses and
use any usual tools for a solution.

I am not a slow downer fan but I
believe in play slow now to play
fast later.

I also find the metronome to be a
demanding teacher by forcing distraction.
Speed is not the top of this list.

etc,etc !

[zvigrunb]

My hobbies are cooking pets and children.
Don’t be psycho, use punctuation.

  !!

[zvigrunb]

MX Player - for Android.
(Besides it being a great video player )

You can slow down or speed up even in steps of "1".
Keeps original pitch AND remembers setting of each media separately!!

[zvigrunb]

@SCOTTY

My method book author goes as far as using the term
“train your brain”.  His method so far has been very annoying

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4956660/

I thought you were going to post a link from your 'method book'? Instead you post something from psychology. ok. I believe most of my 'training my
brain' took place as I played chromatic from the ages of 4 through 15. I somehow built-in all the muscle memory I needed, which has now 'mostly' returned in different ways when I came back to playing after decades away. However, I can't remotely help if you're playing purely from reading sheet music since I play purely by ear. Fwiw, I can't imagine ANY speed being available if one is learning by reading--at least until tons of time and practice
has been put in. I think you've gotten good advice: begin slow and keep playing the same passages over and over until you can play them faster.

I could play at some speed right now if I chose--I don't choose, since only a few of the songs I like to play are at a faster speed. Most are not. Glen
Campbell's 'Gentle On My Mind' (as he played it) is probably what I consider 'moderate speed', if you google it. I believe what you have to do is build muscle memory by repetition, and listening to music a lot if you want to play any music successfully. At some point the brain makes the connection (I'm assuming) between the notes on the page and the sounds you're hearing. I 'can' read music to a degree - for piano, but don't for the chromatic. Just doesn't work for me.  But I can 'hear in my head' before I sit down at the piano or keyboards exactly what the notes I'm about to play will sound like, and individually--and their names. I'm a bit ashamed to admit it since, for me, there seems to be a mental block in translating this to chromatic harmonica, so I stick to playing it (and most instruments) by ear - which I far prefer to do.

Do what works for YOU, but I'd hesitate to rely too much on books. You've been at this for a while and I think you have to begin to trust your ear a bit more --hear the notes as you play them. Perhaps try to pick out a simple song (happy birthday or any nursery rhyme or something else fairly repetitive) and keep playing it until you can do so without following along from a page. Perhaps that's 'training your brain' (or at least your memory) That's how my own seems to work.   If a person can hum, sing or whistle Happy Birthday, it seems inconceivable to me that they would not be able to then be able to play it on a harmonica by picking out the notes.

scotty
[/quote]

Wow...Glen Campbell... childhood memories...
Lady, Ya' got taste!! 

[zvigrunb]

I would be VERY happy to go as fast as Hora Staccato

[John Broecker]

Hora Staccato is only one tune in 999.99 billion
There are other, better tunes to play, in my opinion

Why hit the wall, when you may easily go around it?

Best Regards, Stay Healthy

John Broecker,
Su-6, Oui-Scon-Sin

[SaxonyFan]

Hora Staccato is only one tune in 999.99 billion
There are other, better tunes to play, in my opinion

Why hit the wall, when you may easily go around it?

Best Regards, Stay Healthy

John Broecker,
Su-6, Oui-Scon-Sin

Bingo!

There’s always walls and many of them. How about pushing the wall of musicality?

[zvigrunb]

Hora Staccato is only one tune in 999.99 billion
There are other, better tunes to play, in my opinion

Why hit the wall, when you may easily go around it?

Best Regards, Stay Healthy

John Broecker,
Su-6, Oui-Scon-Sin

Dunno... Simply liked the melody

[John Broecker]

You are the boss, "Ziggy".
You choose the tunes.

Play the tunes you like,
and play them well.

Best Regards, Stay Healthy
Your Harmonica Friend
John Broecker

[SlideMeister]

I dunno, The older I get, the more I prefer the slower, haunting stuff that evokes emotion insteadda just speed. .  I can always recognize and appreciate the talent required to play stuff like Hora, but it doesn't "entertain" me. IOW, I'd never actually pay to hear anyone play it.

[SaxonyFan]

What Age said! The most difficult improvisation to nail is playing sparsely and on my journey it has been the most rewarding. Whenever I can’t think of something to play my fallback is to play something fast. Matter of fact playing fast is what I do while thinking of something to play slowly.

[ejacob4]

When I started, this player mechanic befriended me. He only told me to really worry about 2 things: tone and throat vibrato.

Accuracy is the centerpiece of practice, the field you groom, then play on. Where is the note? When is the note? Where is the space?  Are you going too slow, or actually, more often, too fast?

I remember thinking tone and vibrato were tricks. They weren’t. They were breathing. Soft or loud, fast or slow, playing is breathing, and it’s everything that happens between your diaphragm and the mouthpiece, and sometimes your nasal passages.

Given tone and accuracy, especially the latter, you get faster. You get to stop digging up notes, and just start hitting them. Given that you know a piece, or know it stripped down, filling moments in it usually sounds faster, even though the song has but little changed.

Most often, for instance, Stevie Wonder sounds fast, but often that speed is in trills, scales, or runs. Those things are either things in his little black book of song stuff, like favored girl friends, or just stuff one hears. Of course there’s more, but the point is that what you bring into a song may fill space without actually making you pick up the tempo on a song.

I guess most think of all that as phrasing. Kinda like what’s called voice in writing. So many beginners are looking for their own voice. So foolish. Turns out your voice is . . . You, and unavoidable. My phrasing is where the song goes when I just play the thing.

I knew a guy who wanted to play sax like Coleman. Hot, fast. Every time he practiced, he played more like himself, and less like Coleman, until he quit.

Still, I’m pretty sure if what you have in your heart and hear in your head is fast, and you will not be denied, you’ll get there.

Best regards,
Ed

[SaxonyFan]

Tone and throat vibrato only? Interesting perspective.

[grstatdoc]

My hobbies are cooking pets and children.
Don’t be psycho, use punctuation.

I think this one sailed on by --downright hilarious, Eric, as was Smokey's.

scotty

 
Let's keep Mr. Lecter on THAT side of the screen (monitor, &c. &c.)

[grstatdoc]

"Eats, shoots and leaves..."
Now I understand why most cafes have neither a pool table nor a basketball hoop

Hitting the wall: Happens a lot in mazes...

And I am peeling myself off of a wall here in Arizona