Using tongue to get reliable single notes (newbie here)

[TomN]

My harmonica embouchure sortta "happened" naturally and instinctively - long time ago when
I started messing with diatonic harp.  Without any guidance and before internet. It worked so
I never had any reason to change it. But I started playing chromatic now with more specific
goals (jazz and classical) so I thought that perhaps it is not too late to correct my technique.

Here is rough description:
1. I pucker but no excessively
2. I do not put harp very deeply in between lips (unless I want chords etc)
3. I extend my tongue forward and I touch the mouthpiece - very slightly - under the hole with tip of tongue. 
    I do not curl my tongue in U figure (even though I have genes for that).

I get very relaxed setup that way.
I also get some tactile info about hole position - and ROCK SOLID reliable singe notes.
But I loose ability to "speak" into harp.

So I am thinking that maybe it is just a crutch - I tried to eliminate tongue touch and just do pucker.
And maybe rely slightly on lower lip to play same role as tongue - not very easy - I do not have particularly thin lips.
It works OK on blows but is not very reliable on draws.
Maybe it is just a question of relaxing more.
Or developing better tactile awareness of hole position.

I will be grateful for any thoughts/pointers.

JT

PS. Tongue blocking on side is COMPLETELY unnatural to me.

[Keith]

I pucker, don't do chords, just single notes, so my mouth shape is kinda like how our old granny used to kiss you as a kid, sort of scrunched up into a small hole....

Most of us don't actually 'feel' where we are on the mouthpiece, it's kind of muscle memory of the head & hand, or maybe just brain memory knowing where we are - it just seems to come the more you play.

[TomN]

I pucker, don't do chords, just single notes, so my mouth shape is kinda like how our old granny used to kiss you as a kid, sort of scrunched up into a small hole....

Most of us don't actually 'feel' where we are on the mouthpiece, it's kind of muscle memory of the head & hand, or maybe just brain memory knowing where we are - it just seems to come the more you play.

I am trying to get away from that tongue thing now - for starters it ties your tongue in place - you cannot
articulate notes and on diatonic you cannot bend. I still go back and forth but I get better and better in
pucker only mode.

[drlaugh]

After playing off and on for a half a day, I see my clear single notes and muscle memory will come, but come slowly.

#AsDrLaughSeesIt

[Gnarly He Man]

I mostly pucker, but there is benefit in being able to tongue block--octaves for one, split chords for another, and then the ultimate, corner  switching.
But pucker is adequate, as is the U-block--that is a great way to get single notes, but I can't do it (only some folks can).

[Aramis]

My harmonica embouchure sortta "happened" naturally and instinctively - long time ago when
I started messing with diatonic harp.  Without any guidance and before internet. It worked so
I never had any reason to change it. But I started playing chromatic now with more specific
goals (jazz and classical) so I thought that perhaps it is not too late to correct my technique.

Here is rough description:
1. I pucker but no excessively
2. I do not put harp very deeply in between lips (unless I want chords etc)
3. I extend my tongue forward and I touch the mouthpiece - very slightly - under the hole with tip of tongue. 
    I do not curl my tongue in U figure (even though I have genes for that).

I get very relaxed setup that way.
I also get some tactile info about hole position - and ROCK SOLID reliable singe notes.
But I loose ability to "speak" into harp.

So I am thinking that maybe it is just a crutch - I tried to eliminate tongue touch and just do pucker.
And maybe rely slightly on lower lip to play same role as tongue - not very easy - I do not have particularly thin lips.
It works OK on blows but is not very reliable on draws.
Maybe it is just a question of relaxing more.
Or developing better tactile awareness of hole position.

I will be grateful for any thoughts/pointers.

JT

PS. Tongue blocking on side is COMPLETELY unnatural to me.

what's more important is being comfortable with a number of embouchures, I use different embouchures in different contexts, the one you outlined (nearly a Ublock, but this applies to ublock as well) is ideal for arpeggios as there is less friction, more accuracy, and cleaner notes, a pucker is good for timbral changes and various expressive effects and articulations, and toungblocking is good for polyphonic effects. I find myself frequently alternating between different embouchures depending on the line I am playing, so flexibility is key

[jasonic]

I’ve never considered whether it’s right or wrong, but my tongue is always on the mouthpiece, in the center generally. I can play pure pucker style, but I find the tongue rather useful for articulating notes accurately, splits, octaves, and a bunch of other little nuances in my playing that a straight pucker can’t do as easily. I think that (possibly) wrong technique has shaped the way I play and sound, and I’m most comfortable using my tongue that way. That said, many of the players I admire are straight puckerers, so I guess it comes down to finding what works best for you.

[Bernie9]

I have been puckering all my life and even play the harmonica that way lol.  I have modified my embouchure somewhat, from steady contact on the mouthpiece and doing a doodle-oodle-oodle, to a lighter contact to reduce smearing fast runs.  It is coming along quite well as long as I use an airtight harm.

I will never be an ultra clean player, and sometimes add chordal overtones. I am in between a pure toned classical player and a diatonic blues player.  It works for me very well until I have a string of BDBDBD's.  It is all a work in progress.

[John Broecker]

Don't change your present technique.

Just learn another for flexibility,
as Aramis has written.

I'm primarily a U-blocker for melodic accuracy,
as in classical music. I use the pucker for
expressive playing and for reed bending,
as in blues music.

The tongue block embouchure is still difficult
for me, but I recognize it's importance for
wide interval double and triple stops and
chordal playing.

In embouchures, we can't see what we play.

"all things seen by the eyes are void".

Best Regards, Stay Healthy

JB

[SlideMeister]

I dunno! I dislike notes with "edges" that belong to other notes (if you know what I mean) so as long as someone may be listening, use whatever gives you the cleanest sound. When you're by yourself (which should be most of the time) explore the different embouchures, (or whatever ya call them) and develop all of them for yourself. You'll find that they all have elements that make them unique; so really, you want to have all of them in your bag of tricks.

I'm a 99% pucker player, but I can also do the rest if the need arises. I play guitar a lot better (or maybe I should say "I suck less") when I sit, than I do when I stand. That's a fault, and if the guitar was THE instrument I wanted to play the best, I would practice both standing and sitting till I was equally comfortable with either position. See where I'm going here?

[Bernie9]

Very good advice, thank you

[IAN]

Hi Tom,

I also think that you shouldn't change what you are comfortable with. However, despite tongue blocking feeling unnatural, you are already employing two of the elements required to achieve it, in that you have your tongue on the mouthpiece and albeit occasionally, widen your embouchure to play chords. I suggest that you practice staying in one position only, blowing only one chord and converting that to a single note with your tongue until you are able to comfortably play the note first, followed by the chord. Then try blowing an arpeggio up and down before repeating the process on only one draw chord. By initially limiting your movements, you should more readily adjust your 'indexing' across the mouthpiece as you blow and draw from the side of your mouth rather than the middle.

Whilst I use tongue blocking for vamping when playing my main repertory, which is always in the key of C and the slide used for accidentals, I have the option of not removing my tongue from the mouthpiece and producing clean single notes when playing in any other key.

Kind regards, Ian.

[RDavidB]

 I am still trying to learn tongue blocking on both diatonic and chromatic... I have learned lip pursing on diatonic and mostly do that except now I am trying to figure out the tongue blocking to get more techniques available to me.  I have to say that I have not had much chance to practice lately and on the chromatic, I do seem to be able to get purer sounding notes when I tongue block.

I happened to have just finished a free 30 day trial for Dave Barrett's Blues Harmonica lessons online.  Of course they are mostly diatonic, but there were several good lessons on the Chromatic too.  He tongue blocks and if you listen to him, when playing the chromatic, tongue blocking is almost done exclusively.  What do you think about that?   

[SlideMeister]

He tongue blocks and if you listen to him, when playing the chromatic, tongue blocking is almost done exclusively.  What do you think about that?

Not much.   Probably the same as he would think of me puckering almost exclusively.   

[SlideMeister]

IAN sed:
"I also think that you shouldn't change what you are comfortable with."

Okay, here's another opinion: ~I~ think we should. 

Kinda like in church; "A good preacher should be able to both 'comfort the afflicted" and 'afflict the comfortable."  We don't really learn till we get outside of our comfort zones. Sit down in your LazyBoy chair, in front of a crackling fire with a satisfied belly full of good food, your dog at your feet, listening to your favorite music, in the evening after making your last mortgage payment. Everything's perfect! What's left to do but FALL ASLEEP?

"Billy! Why do you keep falling outta bed?"
"I guess, it's cuz I fall asleep too close to where I got in."

Yeah, "mountain tops" are beautiful, but nothin' ever grows up there; Nah, growth happens in the valleys (where all the work takes place)

Nope! Comfort is NOT our friend; it's more of a deceiver. (Moaaahahaha!)
Yes "play" and reward ourselves in our comfort zones, that's cool, but if we learn outside of those comfort zones, those comfort zones will keep getting bigger; and isn't that what we really want?

Over the years, I've probably seen a hundred players who've never left their comfort zones, and I've noticed that they NEVER improve. Just sayin'.

[Keith]

I occasionally go back & try tongue blocking, but I only ever use a diatonic, because I usually end up having to empty it of spit, & it's easiest to clean a diatonic - no valves or slide.

[brorat]

I occasionally go back & try tongue blocking, but I only ever use a diatonic, because I usually end up having to empty it of spit, & it's easiest to clean a diatonic - no valves or slide.

I have the same issue whenever I go back and try pucker😱😱. Today’s the day I try again!!

[jacquline]

I am still a newbie of sorts. I use the puckering mostly and I do single notes pretty well with that but I am trying to expand my horizons for tongue blocking. When I pucker, my lips hurt a little so I have been trying tongue blocking but it is really awkward.  I don't have thin lips and when I pucker I think my lips can get in the way.

[Keith]

Puckering is like sucking & blowing through a straw, tongue blocking, to me, is like trying to play with a gob stopper in my mouth.......

[Gatty1010]

I am still a newbie of sorts. I use the puckering mostly and I do single notes pretty well with that but I am trying to expand my horizons for tongue blocking. When I pucker, my lips hurt a little so I have been trying tongue blocking but it is really awkward.  I don't have thin lips and when I pucker I think my lips can get in the way.

I can do both... I pucker when taking very fast notes on higher octave... Do what you can do best, master it, then explore the other method. Another method would just widen your range. It does feel awkward in the beginning - I used to get cracks on both sides of my lips when I started TB method.. It's like guitar players who also go through bruised finger tips. Your lips will get used to it sooner than you think.

[SlideMeister]

I am still a newbie of sorts. I use the puckering mostly and I do single notes pretty well with that but I am trying to expand my horizons for tongue blocking. When I pucker, my lips hurt a little so I have been trying tongue blocking but it is really awkward.  I don't have thin lips and when I pucker I think my lips can get in the way.

jacquline

It's not the thickness of our lips, but rather, the "aperture" we make with them. Think of the camera lens pictured below. That "hole" can be made, in any size, anywhere from "where you put your lipstick," (not good, for a buncha reasons ) to way further back to the inside surfaces of the old "smooch muscles." It's just a matter of training, as to how far back you make that aperture happen. It's cool when you realize you can control it that far back, AND it also opens some very interesting tonal control options. IOW, you don't hafta worry about thin or thick lips.

[IAN]

A.J., I also suggested that Tom step out of his comfort zone and spend some time doing tongue blocking practice. Meanwhile, he can still enjoy playing using his current technique. Over time, he may be able to use both techniques or choose just one.

[SlideMeister]

Bingo!

[Jimmy Halfnote]

I am still a newbie of sorts. I use the puckering mostly and I do single notes pretty well with that but I am trying to expand my horizons for tongue blocking. When I pucker, my lips hurt a little so I have been trying tongue blocking but it is really awkward.  I don't have thin lips and when I pucker I think my lips can get in the way.

jacquline

It's not the thickness of our lips, but rather, the "aperture" we make with them. Think of the camera lens pictured below. That "hole" can be made, in any size, anywhere from "where you put your lipstick," (not good, for a buncha reasons ) to way further back to the inside surfaces of the old "smooch muscles." It's just a matter of training, as to how far back you make that aperture happen. It's cool when you realize you can control it that far back, AND it also opens some very interesting tonal control options. IOW, you don't hafta worry about thin or thick lips.

 Can't fully agree A. J., for some kinds of articulation the harmonica is NOT deep in the mouth simply because it can prevent the tongue from working on single notes, fast staccato would be an example,this means that practically the harmonica moves in and out besides to and fro, i can well understand how lips might 'fold' and get in the way of clean playing...it happens to me quite a lot...so you are not on your own Jaqueline.
                                                       jh.

[SlideMeister]

Nah. Like I said, that "aperture" thing is variable, and can work deep or shallow, on the fly, and just changes automatically. At least it does for me anyway. What DOES take a bit more effort is switching from pucker to "octave playing" cuz it requires for the most part to switch from PKR to TB to get it to work, but even that's no big deal. As far as staccato goes, as a non Classical player, I never play staccotos cuz they sound tacky. (hmm! they even sound "like" tacky. "ticka-tacka" coming out of the instrument; so much so in fact, that I actually gout out of my way to avoid playing them