The "LeGato" Tuning

[jazmaan]

Ok, here's a topic for the harmonica formerly known as "Fourkey Chromatic" and then briefly known as the "JChro" but now by popular consensus the "LeGato" tuning  (capitalized G optional).   

Today I took my "LeGato" over to Mike Polesky's for another comparison session vs Solo tuning.   The tune we examined was Horace Silver's popular composition "Doodlin'".   

"Doodlin'" is a jazzy blues in the key of Db.   Mike Polesky says that other things being equal, the key of Db isn't too bad for playing blues on a C Chrom.  But the tune "Doodlin'" is almost impossible to play "as written" on a Solo tuned chromatic because its main motif requires  smoothly executed, rapidly repeated sequences of B,Db,B, Ab,C,Db which are riddled with breath direction changes in Solo Tuning.       And it doesn't get any easier when the motif switches over to the IV chord  with E,F#,E triplets. 

I asked Mike if there was ANY key where Doodlin' would become easier on the Solo, but he couldn't find one.

But those "impossible" sequences flow out as smooth as silk from the "LeGato" tuning, with NO breath direction changes needed.

   

[ALKai]

Ok, here's a topic for the harmonica formerly known as "Fourkey Chromatic" and then briefly known as the "JChro" but now by popular consensus the "LeGato" tuning  (capitalized G optional).   

Today I took my "LeGato" over to Mike Polesky's for another comparison session vs Solo tuning.   The tune we examined was Horace Silver's popular composition "Doodlin'".   

"Doodlin'" is a jazzy blues in the key of Db.   Mike Polesky says that other things being equal, the key of Db isn't too bad for playing blues on a C Chrom.  But the tune "Doodlin'" is almost impossible to play "as written" on a Solo tuned chromatic because its main motif requires  smoothly executed, rapidly repeated sequences of B,Db,B, Ab,C,Db which are riddled with breath direction changes in Solo Tuning.       And it doesn't get any easier when the motif switches over to the IV chord  with E,F#,E triplets. 

I asked Mike if there was ANY key where Doodlin' would become easier on the Solo, but he couldn't find one.

But those "impossible" sequences flow out as smooth as silk from the "LeGato" tuning, with NO breath direction change

   

That tune is way to heavy for me to play, at this point I can only dream.
The only Horace Silver tune I can play is  Song For My Father in C.  I love all his music.

[SlimHeilpern]

There's no question that many things are near to impossible to play legato with standard tuning. But surely there must be interval jumps that are difficult with LeGato tuning that are easy with standard tuning, no? Or are you claiming there's no trade-off whatsoever? I'm at a disadvantage in coming up with examples because I don't have a LeGato tuning layout chart handy, if you have a link to one, that would be great....

Thanks,

- Slim.

[ALKai]

There's no question that many things are near to impossible to play legato with standard tuning. But surely there must be interval jumps that are difficult with LeGato tuning that are easy with standard tuning, no? Or are you claiming there's no trade-off whatsoever? I'm at a disadvantage in coming up with examples because I don't have a LeGato tuning layout chart handy, if you have a link to one, that would be great....

Thanks,

- Slim.

I would also be interested to see the layout for this Chromatic.

I also have two questions, will it also be available in Bb and what will the price be?  Thank you.

[jazmaan]

There's no question that many things are near to impossible to play legato with standard tuning. But surely there must be interval jumps that are difficult with LeGato tuning that are easy with standard tuning, no? Or are you claiming there's no trade-off whatsoever? I'm at a disadvantage in coming up with examples because I don't have a LeGato tuning layout chart handy, if you have a link to one, that would be great....

Thanks,

- Slim.

Absolutely there are tradeoffs.   You never get something for nothing!   The first, most obvious and unavoidable trade off in Legato tuning is loss of range.  Solo Tuning will always have greater range within the same span of holes than Legato tuning.  (But in the end of course, that range contest will always be won by Augmented Wholetone Tuning.) 

Most arpeggios are easier on Solo Tuning than Legato tuning.   Again its related to the range issue.  You just have more geography to cover on the harp in Legato tuning so physically you're not going to be able to leap from Point A to Point B (a 9th away!) without  being airborne longer.   And with more notes on the ground beneath you as you leap, you've got more wrong places to land if you're not precise in your descent.

But the flipside is that if you choose not to fly from point A to point B, but instead to travel scalewise along the ground, so to speak, Legato rolls along with much more fluidity than Solo tuning offers.   

I think the best examples of this advantage are simple major scales.   It's an extraordinary feeling to be able to blow all the way up and down a Bb, Eb, Ab or Db major scale in one continuous uninterrupted breath.    And also to be able to draw up and down an A, D, G or C scale the same way.   Those are pleasures completely denied on the Solo Tuning.   They are the raison d'etre of Legato Tuning. 

The other important advantage of Legato Tuning which is highlighted by "Doodlin'"  is its ability to play what I call "jazz triplets" without changing breath direction.    These are usually whole step 8th note or 16th note triplets.    Like Bb-C-Bb  which Solo tuning can handle correctly without breath direction change.   But "Doodlin'" demands B-Db-B and E-F#-E and Solo Tuning just can't do it convincingly.

Whole step triplets are ubiquitous in jazz but you rarely hear harmonica players use them.   That's always bugged me about most jazz harmonica I hear.   A major part of the jazz idiom is just missing.    Or if its not missing its fudged (which is how Mike Polesky approaches "Doodlin'" and other tunes which require triplets.   If he can't play the whole step triplet "as written" he'll just play the next closest half-step triplet.   Mike believes that most listeners won't hear the difference if the rhythm is correct and he's probably right if he's playing solo.   But if he's playing along with another instrument that's playing "as written" then the two of them together makes mud.

Legato Tuning can smoothly handle every whole step triplet in the book without changing breath direction.   And it can handle every half-step triplet except those which require both Bb and B, or both Eb and E. 

I believe those two advantages, continuous legato scales and legato triplets give Legato Tuning an edge over Solo Tuning in certain musical styles that emphasize those aspects.   But you're right, they don't come without a price.

And regardless of which tuning has the edge, there's no denying that Legato Tuning sounds different than Solo Tuning.   I would think that if you can make a pleasant noise in a different way than what people are accustomed to hearing, then that's a plus too.

 

Here's a link to the Overblow.Com Scalefinder.   When you get there select "7.1 Fourkey Chromatic"

http://www.overblow.com/?menuid=26&type=chrom#

[samtheman]

Would it be wrong to add at this point that there is no sin (at least in my eyes) in having a couple of different tunings around and even using them together sometimes?  No matter what tunings a person can get proficiant at I think we all have to face the fact that the chromatic harmonica has definate limitations that other instruments don't have and that having two (or more) discrete units with which to overcome them isn't 'cheating' or a 'cop-out'.   

The limitations of the harmonica also go beyond the tuning structure and the issue of breath switching; I'm sure you all can list them if you think for a while.  They're all just things we have to 'get over' if we want to persue chromatic harmonica.  For many people, having a steadfast fidelity to solo tuning (if you can't play it on a solo tuned unit you just shouldn't go there) is that way to go.  I say that what ever gets you to where you can say what you want to say - that's a good thing.

Sam

Sam

[jazmaan]

Would it be wrong to add at this point that there is no sin (at least in my eyes) in having a couple of different tunings around and even using them together sometimes?  No matter what tunings a person can get proficiant at I think we all have to face the fact that the chromatic harmonica has definate limitations that other instruments don't have and that having two (or more) discrete units with which to overcome them isn't 'cheating' or a 'cop-out'.   

The limitations of the harmonica also go beyond the tuning structure and the issue of breath switching; I'm sure you all can list them if you think for a while.  They're all just things we have to 'get over' if we want to persue chromatic harmonica.  For many people, having a steadfast fidelity to solo tuning (if you can't play it on a solo tuned unit you just shouldn't go there) is that way to go.  I say that what ever gets you to where you can say what you want to say - that's a good thing.

Sam

Sam

And don't forget that diatonics fill a niche that no chromatic will ever get quite right either.

[jazmaan]

So is anybody here going to NAMM?   Look for Mike Polesky and me in the vicinity of the Hohner booth! 

[SlimHeilpern]

So is anybody here going to NAMM?   Look for Mike Polesky and me in the vicinity of the Hohner booth! 

Sorry to say I'm going to be abstaining this year (I've been attending regularly for many years). I'm currently dedicating all my spare time to video editing of the jazz harmonica summit, which is big fun, but I hate to miss the show. NAMM is always entertaining, informative, and a great place to bump into old friends.

Although I gotta say that as much as I like Hohner, I always find it discouraging that (at least in my experience) they don't let you play any of their harmonicas at their booth (unless you're Stevie), whereas Suzuki and Bends are eager for you to try any axe in their display case.

- Slim.

[jazmaan]

Spent the day at NAMM today.   Picked up Mike Polesky at 8:00 am, arrived in Anaheim around 9.   Got a good parking spot.  Ate breakfast, picked up our Hohner badges and entered the show right as the doors opened at 10.   Went straight to the Hohner booth and played duets for the Hohner staff.    Mike playing his Renny (unfortunately his CX-12 slide got bent somehow and wasn't working right.)  While I played my  LeGato tuned CX-Jazz!   We played Doodlin' and Twisted to show the LeGato's strengths and weaknesses as compared to Solo tuning.   I whined and wheedled about how what I really needed now was a 16-holer!  They said I need to talk to their technicians about the feasiblity.

Hohner has already made about half a dozen 12-hole LeGato's which they will be sending around soon for evaluation from unbiased players.    I guess I can't blame them for wanting other opinions besides mine!  They seem well aware that the vast majority of Solo tuning Chrom players will have little or no interest in switching to a new tuning, so I think they're wondering whether LeGato might appeal to diatonic players who are open to trying something new.   

 

[samtheman]

Aha! So the cat out of the bag!  I have to say, Jazz, that when I first started playing around with building my own  Lagato I thought a CX-12 reed plat woud be the way to go but I set it aside right away because it would invove my buying new units.  I have several old 270 already so that is the way to go for me.

Well, now that you have one and you've spilled the beans maybe you can tell us al how you think this platform works for Lagato.  And as long as your talking about 16 hole units, what do you have in mind here?  Any model you think loans itself to this better than others?

Sam

[jazmaan]

Aha! So the cat out of the bag!  I have to say, Jazz, that when I first started playing around with building my own  Lagato I thought a CX-12 reed plat woud be the way to go but I set it aside right away because it would invove my buying new units.  I have several old 270 already so that is the way to go for me.

Well, now that you have one and you've spilled the beans maybe you can tell us al how you think this platform works for Lagato.  And as long as your talking about 16 hole units, what do you have in mind here?  Any model you think loans itself to this better than others?

Sam

I consider myself to have very limited knowledge and experience with different models of Chromatic harps.   I've owned a few CX-12's in various tunings: dimi, augmented wholetone, bebop and solo, and, just within the last year, several Seydel Chromatic Deluxe's.   I've also got a dimi Charlie Musselwhite that Hering made for me.  Many years ago I owned a CBH, I've owned a couple of leaky Slide Harps and a Koch harp.  And I have one clunky old 280/Chromonica 64 in Solo tuning. 

At SPAH I tried a few current models including a Super 64 which I liked and a Suzuki Gregoire Moret which I thought was absolutely marvelous.     At NAMM yesterday I didn't try any harps but Mike Polesky tried a new Bends chromatic which he said was very good and a Hering Free Note which he also said was quite good.  But he was most impressed with the Suzuki Sirius.

So when you ask me what kind of 16 hole unit I have in mind, all I can say is ANY 16 hole LeGato would be nice.   I think that for a first experimental prototype its probably going to be a 280, but I haven't talked to Hohner's techs about this yet.

As for my impressions of the CX-Jazz,  I'll tell you what I told Hohner.   The prototype they sent me has been a joy.   Much more responsive and also much more reliable than my Seydel Chromatic Deluxes.    But the Seydel does have one advantage when it comes to the LeGato tuning.   It's a "short throw" harp.    So if you're playing the LeGato tuning to minimize breath direction changes, that means your button finger is going to have to work just that much harder on a "long-throw" harp like the CX-Jazz.  But even with that one handicap,  I can still play much faster and much more smoothly on the CX-Jazz.   And I've got much more control over the sound of each note.   

As for reliability, I've had absolutely no problems with the CX-Jazz.   Based on my experiences with Seydels,  I was concerned that the LeGato tuning might have been causing early reed fatigue, but that has NOT been an issue on the CX.     And of course stuck slides and broken springs have also been non-issues with the CX-Jazz.

As for the CX-Jazz mouthpiece - I like it a lot better than the CX-12 mouthpiece.   That's just my personal preference.   Mike Polesky tells me he still prefers the CX-12 rounded mouthpiece.    We've tried swapping mouthpieces - putting a regular CX-12 mouthpiece on the LeGato or putting the CX-Jazz mouthpiece on a CX-12 Solo harp, and we can't hear any differences in sound.  So is the CX-Jazz worth the price premium?    That's your call.   But I'm very happy to have one!

By the way, most of Hohner's new batch of LeGato prototypes are 270's.   I think they only have one other CX-Jazz.   And while they seemed to like the name "LeGato" (hearing it for the first time at NAMM yesterday),  who knows what they'll actually call it if they ever actually market it.

And one more thing - for OldStudent and others who may still be wishing for a 12 or 14 hole Fourkey diatonic - I pitched that to Hohner too and again they said to ask their techs.

[samtheman]

I think it's great that Hohner is taking such an interest in the Lagato tuning.  It would be great if you could tall us all about how this all cam about.  Was this something that you had to "Pitch" to them?  How did you get to the techs?  What were their questions; did it seem like they knew right away where you were going with this tuning? 

As for a sixteen hole Lagato, the 280 would be my choice also - simply because there are a lot of used ones available for cheap. 

Back to your CX-12 - now that you've got a Lagato the plays real nice for you, you must be rubbing you hands together and thinking of cool stuff to play.  Have you got any songs in mind that are more lengthy and ambitious projects?  Maybe some big "Giant Steps" type number?  Have you been able to settle into this layout enough to really think about jazz playing in more harmonica spacific terms?  By this I mean maybe material that isn't from the alto and tenor horn world but more harmonica based. 

My personal ambition is to play treatments of music from the cannon of Jazz that feel like "home" if you now what I meam; like I'm doing something that's meant for harmonica, sounds best on harmonica.  I'm hoping for a day when are jazz numbers out there and paople hear some alto sax guy covering it and say to each other 'man, you can't really pull that one off one a sax.  It's gotta be done on harmonica or it just doesn't sound right.' 

Anyway, enough of that.  Make sure you keep us posted on any new developements with the Lagato, both in terms of what you're playing and what Hohner (or anybody else) is doing.  It's great reading.

After I move (I'm moving in March) I hope to have my Lagato done (froma 270) and maybe share some playing with the SlideMeister crowd.  I know the the first thing I want do is "Romance Without Finance".

Sam

[samtheman]

BTW, I hadn't even considered the slide throw issue.  Yeah, my Saxony *does* have a shorter throw than any of my Hohners.  And the 64X is even longer than the 270.  Hmmm, something to think about.  Thought I still havn't got one, I already know that playing runs on a Lagato is going to involve lots of button pushing if you want to do a phrase in all one breath direction.  My experience, at least on solo tuning, is that for me jumping from one hole to another in blow and throwing the slide has always been the hardest thing for me.  I'm pretty good with this move on draw phrases or when a switch is called for at the same point.  But Blow, Blow, Slide/Blow, Blow - moves like that might be harder if the throw is real long. 

Sam

[jazmaan]

One of the more common triplet moves I come across in the Omnibook is the Bb-C-Bb triplet.    (That's actually one of only two whole-step-triplet moves that is possible on a Solo tuned Chromatic without changing breath direction.)   But its not the easiest move on the LeGato.   It's blow/slide-in, blow/slide-out and up a hole, then back down a hole to blow/slide-in again.    I've gotten used to doing it because I do run across it so often, but its not my favorite move.

How did Hohner get involved?   You may recall I took my Seydels to SPAH 2009 in Sacramento.   There I was demonstrating them for anybody who would listen.  As usual most of the people I cornered feigned polite interest but quickly moved on!    But a few people were genuinely fascinated.  They included Richard Hunter (thanks Richard for your great encouragement!), Charlie Musselwhite (always open-minded about alternate tunings) and, from Hohner, Steve Baker, who not only took great interest but immediately acted on it, insisting that I pitch it to Andy Garrigue.    Andy took it back to Hohner's techs and four months later I had a CX-Jazz LeGato in my mouth!

As for my long-term goals with LeGato tuning, they're nothing grandiose.   I get my kicks just from being able to reproduce my favorite jazz melodies and favorite phrases and passages of my jazz heroes on a harp.    And I get my biggest kicks from the idea that I'm playing something that's never been played before on a harmonica. Like for instance take yesterday when Mike P. and I did live duets on Wardell Gray.    Was it a great moment in jazz?  Not even close.  But it sure made me smile and it should still go down in harmonica history filed under, "Never been done in public before!"

   

[jazmaan]

Had a nice jam session today on the "Le Gato" with a NON-jazz playing guitarist.  He's really a great and accomplished player but he comes from the finger-pickin' acoustic Ash Grove folk/blues school.   (Although he did do a very nice job backing me on the jazz blues "Twisted"!).   But most of the jamming was on folk blues, and Grateful Deadish jamming.   

I concentrate so much on challenging bebop tunes that it's easy to forget the "Le Gato" may even be more well suited to other styles.  A lot of that acoustic fingerpickin stuff is in the Key of E, which happens to be a "chord" key for a LeGato C harp.   Sometimes it was almost too easy to play along without even using the button.

[jazmaan]

Discussions with Hohner are continuing with regard to the possibility of a 16 hole LeGato.   Seems like they still consider the tuning a novelty or curiousity with little mass appeal.    I'm trying to tell them that if you're a complete novice (as I imagine the majority of harmonica consumers probably are), the LeGato may be easier to learn, play and get almost instant gratification from by noodling the melodies of your favorite pop hits than Solo tuning.   Seems like if I was a novice and the salesman said "Hey kid, try this "Le Gato", its easier to learn and better suited for that stuff you listen to on the radio,"  I'd be sold.

There's a whole lot of pop melodies I can play with minimal use of the button.    And the number of "easy keys" to play in seems greater than solo tuning.    Or at least they seem easy to me, but I'm not exactly a LeGato novice anymore,  since I've been playing it for more than six months.

I'd be real curious to know how OldStudent, Gnarly and Sam (do you have one yet Sam?) are progressing.   What kind of music are you guys using it for?    Do you think its any easier than Solo? 

[chromaddict]

Would it be wrong to add at this point that there is no sin (at least in my eyes) in having a couple of different tunings around and even using them together sometimes?  No matter what tunings a person can get proficiant at I think we all have to face the fact that the chromatic harmonica has definate limitations that other instruments don't have and that having two (or more) discrete units with which to overcome them isn't 'cheating' or a 'cop-out'.   

No, but it can be a little confusing to switch back and forth.  I have completely abandoned solo tuning after getting used to C# based diminished tuning.  However, I recently added a C diminished harmonica, and it is amazing (and not confusing at all) to have the extra choices available. 

There are only 3 positions on diminished, and so with two harmonicas tuned a half step apart, I have 2 choices of position for any song.  Once I add a B diminished harmonica, I will literally be able to think in any key (position) that I want, regardless of the actual key that is being played.

While this can be used as a short cut, I find that for me it is quite the opposite.  Instead of playing everything in one position, I find myself practicing 2 or 3 positions for every song. 

[Gnarly He Man]

Hi--I'm back off the cruise ship. It was OK, not the best time I have ever had, but I did get a chance to play the LeGato on stage in front of dozens of people, probably 80 folks at one point.
The bad news is that I only used it for one tune (Don't Worry Be Happy) and that for the B pentatonic arpeggio it provided me so I didn't have to sing the line--I was singing 4 one hour sets every day and got vocal fatigue you bet.
Please don't be mad at me that I squandered the instrument's potential--I haven't mastered the tuning! I also didn't announce the instrument, so no one knows anything except that I was playing harmonica. I did show the tuning to a few different people, some of them musicians, but since, as I say, I can't really play it in a manner that reflects its capabilities, I am sure no one was impressed.
But it's just like Sam says, whatever gets you thru the night, it's all right. I had to play without backgrounds and so really had to work hard to make it all good. I did get a recommendation and so might do some more cruises for short contracts, but the main benefit for me was getting to play for hours a day everyday and also to refine my loop technique. I was mostly using an RC-20 in the beginning but by the last week was using my Gibson Echoplex Digital Pro which totally rocks--and that one I know how to use!
Also did play a lot of chrom, but one of the first things I did was to swap the reed plates on the HFC back to the C7/G plates, so the short answer is, I have not made much headway on the LeGato.
Gary

[samtheman]

Would it be wrong to add at this point that there is no sin (at least in my eyes) in having a couple of different tunings around and even using them together sometimes?  No matter what tunings a person can get proficiant at I think we all have to face the fact that the chromatic harmonica has definate limitations that other instruments don't have and that having two (or more) discrete units with which to overcome them isn't 'cheating' or a 'cop-out'.   

No, but it can be a little confusing to switch back and forth.  I have completely abandoned solo tuning after getting used to C# based diminished tuning.  However, I recently added a C diminished harmonica, and it is amazing (and not confusing at all) to have the extra choices available. 

There are only 3 positions on diminished, and so with two harmonicas tuned a half step apart, I have 2 choices of position for any song.  Once I add a B diminished harmonica, I will literally be able to think in any key (position) that I want, regardless of the actual key that is being played.

While this can be used as a short cut, I find that for me it is quite the opposite.  Instead of playing everything in one position, I find myself practicing 2 or 3 positions for every song. 

Your having abandoned solo tuning in favor of diminished tunings interests me a lot.  I've read Max Graco's article on MOLT tunings  with a lot of interest.  Are your Diminished harmonicas 12 hole models?  Can you maybe talk a little bit more about your experience with this tuning?

Sam

[Grizzly]

Is anyone using dimi or LeGato for classical music??

(Aside: I get the LeGato designation; but when I first saw it, I thought, "Shouldn't it be el gato, or le chat? Silly rabbit bear.)

Tom

[DimiDude]

I'm working through a flute scale book and a classical oboe etude book on a dimi tuned CX-12.  I'm gearing up to work on a Handel Sonata.  My ultimate goal is to play jazz but I'm starting with written music to learn basic technique and where the notes are.  Plus I love classical music.

I've only been at it for a month and a half, but so far so good.  For classical music I think the advantages of diminished tuning are more enharmonics (4 instead of 2), and fewer 'jumps'.  For example, Bb and D are next to each other; no need to jump over a hole. 

For reading, dimi is a little harder to learn at first.  With solo tuning a beginner can start in the key of C and not have to worry about the slide button.  Then you can gradually add button pushes moving to F and G.  With dimi there are no 'easy' keys - you have to use the button from the get go.  On the other hand, there are no 'hard keys' with dimi either.  Once you learn the key of C, you're comfortable with the slide, and other keys aren't any scarier.

When reading solo tuning is nice in that you know you have to push a button whenever you see a sharp or flat.  There's no concept of 'white keys / black keys' with dimi.  It feels very arbitrary at first.  However you quickly get over that.  It's not much different than learning to play a woodwind instrument.  There's little rhyme or reason as to why some keys are on the left side, some on the right, some use the left hand, some the right, etc.  You just gradually memorize the 'fingering' for each note. 

The tremendous advantage for ear playing is that there are only three 'positions' to learn.  Also, I'm using a half-valved harp, and dimi maximizes the number of valveless bends available.  Very bluesy sounding.  I'm practicing my scales and classical etudes half-valved, even though I never bend of course in this music.  It's helping me even out the sound between the valved and valveless notes.  Besides tone quality, a big difference between valved and valveless notes is volume (valved are louder).  With dimi, since every draw note is valveless and every blow note is valved, you simple have to draw a bit harder / blow a bit softer to even it out.  Since the muscles involved in inhaling and exhaling are completely different, this is a calibration we learn to make anyway.  With valveless dimi the calibration is just a bit different that's all.  Still there is a slight tonal difference but I find getting the volume the same goes a long way. 

But of course if one were playing just classical music there would be no reason to peel off any valves.  If I were starting off with the intention of just playing classical music I would consider either dimi or 'gallison' tuning where the first doubled C is tuned down to an A.  This removes some 'jumps' and still preserves the 'white key / black key' distinction for reading. 

But if I played as well as you Tom I wouldn't change a thing!  (I've heard your playing of the flute duets on the gallery.)  In the grand scheme of things tunings don't matter that much.  Tone, phrasing, rhythm, and oh yeah, practicing matter a lot more I'm sure.  A big problem for me right now is consistently working the slide cleanly.  I hate it when I get one of those little 'glitches' between two notes.  I guess it's no different than learning to finger a woodwind cleanly.

Steve

[Grizzly]

Steve, thanks for the compliment. I suppose I'd get a lot more legato passages in LeGato; but we deal with what we've got, and I am comfortable with the breath exchanges in solo tuning. They may not be as smooth as a trombone slide, or even slurred flute music; but even organ doesn't have a sustain pedal, like a piano, and players get along fine. Yes, they can smear notes into others by momentarily holding down two keys; but if the default on harmonica is breath exchange for scales, it's not too hard to make all attacks (articulations) sound the same—and still have slurs where they occur naturally. Still, I'd like to try a dimi or a LeGato sometime to compare.

Tom

[jazmaan]

An important corollary to the LeGato's inherent ability to play 8 different major scales without interruption of breath is that it can similarly play uninterrupted "ii-V-I" progressions ending on any of those 8 major chords.    I kind of knew this but I didn't really grok it until I started working my way through a book called "250 Jazz Patterns" by Evan Tate.      This book is very "lick" oriented and many of the patterns it contains are instantly recognizable as familiar workhorses of the jazz idiom.

So imagine my delight when I find that so many of these standard licks can be executed in one smooth flowing breath on the LeGato!   I called Mike Polesky to discuss this and he pointed out that I'm probably in the early stages of the book where the "ii-V-I" patterns are mostly diatonic without a lot of chromatic passing notes.    But still,  it's a whole lot of fun to have these familiar jazz licks just kind of fall out of the harp in one breath!

[samtheman]

I've decided to forgo building a LeGato and buy one from Seydel.  I have a uper heavy work load this February which is good (business is always good even if it makes you too busy) And I'm moving by March first And I have a gig with my blues band.  All of that isnt going to leave me any time to work on hrmonicas.  But I want a LeGato NOW.  So if I can just sell this Saxony of mine then I'm ordering one.  I'm still going to go with a "C" at this point unless anybody has given this more thought and can point out a better key. 

Anybody have any thoughts on a "C" LeGato Tenor?

Sam

[jazmaan]

My thoughts on a "C Legato Tenor"?    If you can find one,  I'll buy it from you!    Seydel won't make one lower than Ab.    Hohner still hasn't let me know what their range limits may be, but I'd be surprised if they're any different than Seydel's. 

I was thinking about Dimi tuning today.  I gave up on Dimi because I was never able to get comfortable with it.   I used to liken it to always being adrift on stormy seas without any safe harbor in sight.    I suppose if you stick with it long enough you can get your "sea legs" but I never liked the feeling.   

Then I remembered something even more disconcerting about Dimi tuning.   When you're playing jazz,  the V7b9 chord is a "tension" chord which is supposed to point inexorably to the "safe harbor" of home at the I major chord.    But on the Dimi, the feeling you get while playing the harp is almost the exact opposite of how the music sounds. 

Because a diminished chord can easily double for a  rootless V7b9,  there's this weird disconnect where the "Tension" chord is actually the easiest thing to play on the harp while that "Safe Harbor" chord its pointing towards always eludes your grasp!  I could never get used to that.

 

[Eugene]

Steve,

I think you've captured the essence of the diminished tuning very well in your post!  It will be very interesting to see how you get on with playing classical music on the dimi.

Some time ago, I translated some Irish tunes onto the dimi.  It just so happens that some of the rolls that I was playing on so-called Eddie Clarke tuning (or reversed slide tuning) "looked" very similar to where they would lie on a dimi.  My aim was to create a Grand Unified Theory of harmonica playing (ok, so I'm joking here, but I was trying to just stick to one tuning as I'm lazy!) where the same instrument could be used to play the various musics I was interested in, and still be able to improvise in jazz - and have the half-valving.  I was already working on something similar with blues, with some good results (and some... mixed ) . I didn't build up the speed on the Irish tunes to the same level as on the other tuning, and they definitely felt more awkward - but still more comfortable and convincing for me than say, playing the same tune in D major on a solo-tuned harmonica.  I recorded them a day or two after trying out the tunes on dimi, but I'm not sure if I still have them.  Anyway, I stuck to EC tuning for Irish tunes.

Actually, that's another point - the 3 positions on diminished chromatic can look like positions 1, 2 and 3 on both chromatic (solo-tuned) and diatonic harmonica (blues harp, which is the same in the 2nd octave as a solo-tuned chrom anyway).  So, first position on dimi can look or feel like 1st position on a solo-tuned chrom, with some slide differences.  It may help or hinder you to think like this, in reference to a tuning you already know...

I'm pretty intrigued by the legato tuning.  Of course this is not really the main reason for it, but it always bugged me when I couldn't play something exactly as written due to some blow/draw patterns not being smooth enough.  I mentioned Song for My Father and Take 5 as being two tunes where the decorations are hard to play.  SfmF lays pretty well in 2nd position (blow slide in for F minor) on a diminished tuned harmonica, but in the other two positions, the decorations are pretty hard to make sound convincing.  I'll watch your stuff with interest, Jaazman, if that's ok!

It's great that so much is happening in the chrom world.  Thanks for sharing, lads and lassies!

Eugene

[Eugene]

When you're playing jazz,  the V7b9 chord is a "tension" chord which is supposed to point inexorably to the "safe harbor" of home at the I major chord.    But on the Dimi, the feeling you get while playing the harp is almost the exact opposite of how the music sounds. 

Hey Jaazman,

I know what you mean, but I haven't had that experience with diminished chromatic.  A lot of standard jazz tunes include ii-Vs in many keys that never resolve to any I chord.  I think the advantages of consistency of intervals, ease of shifting to other keys and relative ease of playing arpeggios make it a good one for jazz.

Eugene

[jazmaan]

Are the "decorations" you refer to in "Song For My Father" and "Take Five" usually notated out when you see those tunes in fake books?   If they are,  I'll take a look and report back how they lay on the "LeGato".

As for the ii-V's -  yes I agree there are lots of them in jazz and they are pretty easy to play in Dimi tuning.   But I do like having a nice fat tonic chord to land on, even if its only at the end of a song.   (Check out the last chord in my Fourkey Diatonic rendition of "Yardbird Suite" on YouTube).   

And as I said in a recent post,  another advantage of LeGato tuning is that it can play complete ii-V-I phrases in 8 different keys with continuous uninterrupted breaths.   One of these days, one of you guys will try it and understand how cool that is!

[DimiDude]

One of these days, one of you guys will try it and understand how cool that is!

One of these days maybe I will!  I have my hands full right now learning dimi.  One thing that worries me about LeGAto is the jumps and 5 hole octave.  Everything is a trade off I guess.

I have been following your investigations with interest Jazzman.  It's a very creative tuning, certainly something I wouldn't have thought of.  As Eugene said a lot of innovation and creativity is percolating through the chromatic world right now.

Steve