The "LeGato" Tuning

[chromaddict]

Jazmaan,

After reading your Charlie Parker thread, I started practicing some Parker tunes on dimi, and I found that a lot of them lay pretty well, especially in 2nd position, which includes F and Ab on a C# dim harmonica.  One tune I enjoyed playing was Confirmation, which has a lot of leaps.  I was wondering how well that one would work on the LeGato?

[chromaddict]

Your having abandoned solo tuning in favor of diminished tunings interests me a lot.  I've read Max Graco's article on MOLT tunings  with a lot of interest.  Are your Diminished harmonicas 12 hole models?  Can you maybe talk a little bit more about your experience with this tuning?

Sam,

I've been playing the dimi since June.  Before that I played solo, bebop, and augmented tunings.  I have dimis in 10, 12, 14, & 16 hole models although I prefer the 12 holers.  Most of them are half valved - this allows you to get a clean half step below on almost all the draw notes.  I can get it cleanly or as a bend. 

This is very useful - in 2nd and 3rd position you can get b3,3,5 all as draw notes.  In 3rd position, root, 6 and b7 are also all draw notes.  Pentatonics lay very well in all 3 postions - for me there is a very strong sense of 'home' in each position.

I don't know if I've ever thought of this before, but I believe that you can get every note as a draw.  On a C# dimi, C#, E, G,& Bb are your enharmonics, C, Eb, F# and A are your natural draws, and you can draw bend those to get B, D, F, & Ab. 



 

[Jason Rogers]

Hi Sam, Steve, Eugene, ChromAddict, Jazmaan, Gary, all,

I have a video up of me playing the dimi chrom.  It wasn't supposed to be a musical statement at all, I was just comparing embouchures with a friend and played some random melodies.  But now the video is there, and for those not familiar with the layout, you can kind of hear what some phrases on the dimi might sound like.

Thanks for all of your exploration and for sharing your results, Jazmaan, and to everyone else for sharing their experiences.

Jason

[jazmaan]

Tried out the head of "Confirmation" this morning.  It's a little jumpy but not completely unmanageable.   I've been exploring a new approach to arpeggio's on the LeGato.   If you're willing to temporarily abandon the "everything in one breath" style,  it's possible to leverage some of the LeGato's enharmonics to shorten the distance between leaps.   For instance in a D-F-A-C arpeggio instead of playing it as   2blow-3blow-5blow-6blow,  you can play the A as a 4draw(slide-in) and the top C as 5 draw(slide-in) which kind of compresses the arpeggio. But you do have to change breath direction.   Sometimes that helps with "jumpy" songs like Confirmation.

I'm curious, were you using the Omnibook transcription?   It's full of tilde's indicating trills.  Some of them sound better as whole-step trills. The LeGato handles both whole and half-step trills quite well.   How does the dimi do?

The hardest part of "Confirmation" for me is the 2nd half of the bridge  where its got those 16th note runs over the Ebm7-Ab7b9-Db  ii-V-I, but that's not necessarily the LeGato's fault.  It's just a tricky spot in the song.   

Other parts of the main melody actually lay pretty well.   And there's even an 8-bar stretch beginning at measure 9 and leading into the bridge that's susceptible to the "LeGato" all-in-one-breath treatment!

Still this isn't the tune I'd pick to show off the LeGato's strengths.    "Parker's Mood" is more like it!

[jazmaan]

Hi Sam, Steve, Eugene, ChromAddict, Jazmaan, Gary, all,

I have a video up of me playing the dimi chrom.  It wasn't supposed to be a musical statement at all, I was just comparing embouchures with a friend and played some random melodies.  But now the video is there, and for those not familiar with the layout, you can kind of hear what some phrases on the dimi might sound like.

Thanks for all of your exploration and for sharing your results, Jazmaan, and to everyone else for sharing their experiences.

Jason

So where's the link?

[Jason Rogers]

So where's the link?

D'oh!

http://www.youtube.com/user/jasoncrogers#p/a/u/0/71cUNmHoF7k

[oldstudent]

And one more thing - for OldStudent and others who may still be wishing for a 12 or 14 hole Fourkey diatonic - I pitched that to Hohner too and again they said to ask their techs.

A belated thanks to you, Jazmaan, for talking with them about the potential of a 12-hole fourkey diatonic.  Surely they must see the vast potential market for a real chromatic harp that fits comfortably in your pocket!

I have completely given up solo tuning, after playing it for 35 years, and now I only play my fourkey diatonic and its bigger legato cousin.  But forgive me, I still have not had time to really master the breath-simple mode of play, using the slide on the chromatic legato.  I know that it should not take many evenings to learn it (given how close it is to the fourkey pattern), but some big things in the day job have been keeping me up late too many nights over the past two months.
One cannot do everything.  I certainly have no hopes of playing Charlie Parker, note for note!  (I've tried playing along with your two fourkey videos, but when your notes start going fast, I take refuge in my amateur status and skip some of the short ones.)

[jazmaan]

So where's the link?

D'oh!

http://www.youtube.com/user/jasoncrogers#p/a/u/0/71cUNmHoF7k

Hey Chesper that sounds great!  Is that one of the new Seydel acrylics you're playing?  Very nice indeed.   I have a request though, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear you play some major scale runs.   I heard a lot of minorish stuff and some cool Dominant 7 stuff, which I know the Dimi tuning is well suited for.   But I'd like to know if it still sounds that smooth on major scales.

But I'm definitely impressed with the tone you're getting out of that Seydel!

[samtheman]

very nice, Chesper.  And yeah, It would be great to hear exicution of a couple of major scales and hear how they lay.

So the news on this end is that I was able to sell my Saxony this weekend so I'm putting my order in for  Seydel DeLux LeGato in "C" tomarrow - yippe. 

Sam

[samtheman]

Hey Jazzman, I read on this thread or another your mentioning a jazz exercises book with patterns in that cover many commonly used jazz figures - what was that book?

SAM

[samtheman]

I found it: "250 Jazz Patterns" by Evan Tate".  Looks interesting - I heading off to google this and check it out.

sam

[jazmaan]

Yes I was just showing the book to  Mike Polesky and we were running through some of the exercises together comparing Solo to LeGato.   Funny how Mike said the easiest ones for him were the ones that had regular blow-draw-blow-draw patterns, while for me of course the easiest ones were the ones that could be executed without changing breath direction at all.

I kind of wish I'd known about the E-version of the book before I ordered the hard copy.   With the e-version I might have been able to load the exercises directly into Harmony Assistant to be tabbed out automatically.   But I guess I probably learn more tabbing them out by hand.   Because there's always two different ways of playing each exercise on the LeGato,  I pretty well have to tab them out in advance to discover the smoothest way.

[ALKai]

Are the "decorations" you refer to in "Song For My Father" and "Take Five" usually notated out when you see those tunes in fake books?   If they are,  I'll take a look and report back how they lay on the "LeGato".

As for the ii-V's -  yes I agree there are lots of them in jazz and they are pretty easy to play in Dimi tuning.   But I do like having a nice fat tonic chord to land on, even if its only at the end of a song.   (Check out the last chord in my Fourkey Diatonic rendition of "Yardbird Suite" on YouTube).   

And as I said in a recent post,  another advantage of LeGato tuning is that it can play complete ii-V-I phrases in 8 different keys with continuous uninterrupted breaths.   One of these days, one of you guys will try it and understand how cool that is!

Yes, to resolve on the root after a 2 5 1 turn around is important to me as well.

Where could I purchase a chromatic like this?  The more I hear about it, the more I want to try one.

Also, How difficult is it to transition between a solo tuned chromatic and a legato tuned chromatic?

[jazmaan]

Where could I purchase a chromatic like this?  The more I hear about it, the more I want to try one.

Also, How difficult is it to transition between a solo tuned chromatic and a legato tuned chromatic?

You can purchase one from Seydel by using their "Harp Configurator".   They used to have a preset, but apparently that preset has disappeared so now you have to configure it manually,  reed by reed.   

I suggest you first visit the Overblow.Com scalefinder at:

http://www.overblow.com/?menuid=26&type=chrom#

and select "7.1 Fourkey Chromatic".     Print out that layout and use it as a guide when using the Seydel Harp Configurator at

http://www.seydel1847.de/epages/Seydel.sf/secY42qYIHOC16/?ObjectPath=/Shops/Seydel/Products/51480(sp)&ViewAction=ViewHarpConfigurator

At that page select "enter notes manually" with "international" naming and "continue" and it will bring you to a page where you can enter the layout manually.   It's a little tricky because Seydel wants all the slide IN reeds (blow and draw) entered BELOW the numbers on the LOWER PLATE.    All the slide OUT reeds (blow and draw) must be entered ABOVE the numbers on the UPPER plate.    That's NOT how the Overblow.Com chart is set up.   

On Overblow.Com the Slide IN reeds are at the very top row (blow) and the very bottom row (draw) and are indicated with blue dots, while the Slide OUT notes are in the middle of the chart immediately above and below the numbers.  Overblow.Com's system makes more sense to me, but just be aware of the difference when you enter the notes in the Seydel Configurator.

In the Seydel configurator be sure to check off ALL the valve boxes.   You want all the reeds to be valved.   In my experience, half-valving doesn't work well on Seydel Chromatic Deluxe harps.     Also make sure you select EQUAL TEMPERMENT.

When you're done configuring the reeds, click CONTINUE to move on to the next page where you can check the layout a final time and then move on to your checkout basket.

Unfortunately it looks like Seydel has raised their prices recently.   In the USA a "LeGato" will now cost you $211.     

As for the transition,  I guess that depends on how long you've been seriously playing the Solo tuning.    You'll need to put the Solo tuning aside for a while and play LeGato exclusively for at least a few months.   Tab out some simple scales and melodies and practice them frequently.   Post your progress here and I can try and help with any issues you may run into.   

[samtheman]

okay Jazzman, I'm glad you pointed out the layout differences between overblow scale finder and Seydel Configurator - I wouldn't have caught it. 

But it is even more tricky than this.  Let me see if I can lay out the configurator layout from the seydel page and you'll see what I mean.  It had to do with the octave numbers. 

Here's what I'm laying out right now on the Seydel page for me LeGato order:

blow    C#4  D#4  F#4  G#4  A#4  C#5  D#5  F#5  G#5  A#5  C#6  D#6
Draw    D4    F4    G4    A4    C4    D5    F5    G5    A5    C5    D6    F6

Hole      1      2     3      4     5      6      7      8      9     10    11     12

Blow     C       D     F     G     A      C      D      F      G     A      C      D
Draw    C#4    E4   F#4  G#4 B4    C#5   E5     F#5  G#5  B5    C#6   E6

So look at the octaves. This can't make sens. So I fiddle with the octaves and I get this: Go to the next mesage (since I leaded the new Explorer I can't type below a certain point on this reply window!)

Sam

[samtheman]

Maybe I'm not understanding the octave numbers right because it seems to me that A#4 should be LOWER than G#4.  Crap; what's the range of a given octave on this system?  What does the "4" group begin and end with?  A or C? Hmm, if I'm working with a C tuning layout does C become the starting point for each octave group?  If that's the case then Maybe the octaves are right and you end up with this:

blow    C#4  D#4  F#4  G#4  A#4  C#5  D#5  F#5  G#5  A#5  C#6  D#6
Draw    D4    F4    G4    A4    C4    D5    F5    G5    A5    C5    D6    F6

Hole      1      2     3      4     5      6      7      8      9     10    11     12

Blow     C4     D4   F4    G4    A4    C5    D5     F5    G5    A5   C6     D6
Draw    C#4    E4   F#4  G#4 B4    C#5   E5     F#5  G#5  B5   C#6    E6

This layout shows all the octaves as they can be set in the key of C range.  Checking against the solo tuning, which starts in the C4 range this is the only layout possible.  Everything has to be expressed in naturals or sharps (there are no flats). 

I guess I figured it out for myself.  But I guess it's important to point out the octave convention rule to people (like me until now!) who aren't used to distinguishing each octave my a number.  So as I undrstand it the rule is thus:  If you are working in the key of C a given octave is mumbered starting with C (ex. C4, D4 E4 etc.).  If you are working in the key of A a given octave is numbered starting with A (ex. A3, B3, C3, etc.) is this correct?

And so in the key of C we want to start in the number four octave since that's where a C solo tuned 12 hole (no-tenor) chromatic would start and so we end up with a "C" LeGato in the right range.  I hope I've got this right.

Sam

[jazmaan]

If that chart is meant to mimic the Seydel configurator then you've got the top and bottom plates reversed!   The top plate (above the numbers) is supposed to be slide OUT and the blow should go C,D,F,G,A

The bottom plate (below the numbers) is supposed to be slide IN and the blow should go C#, D#, F#, G#, A#.   


I know its confusing as [heck].  The only way I was able to figure out their system was by looking at one of their presets,   Bebop Tuning for instance, and see where they've got the slide in and slide out reeds.

[ALKai]

Where could I purchase a chromatic like this?  The more I hear about it, the more I want to try one.

Also, How difficult is it to transition between a solo tuned chromatic and a legato tuned chromatic?

You can purchase one from Seydel by using their "Harp Configurator".   They used to have a preset, but apparently that preset has disappeared so now you have to configure it manually,  reed by reed.   

I suggest you first visit the Overblow.Com scalefinder at:

http://www.overblow.com/?menuid=26&type=chrom#

and select "7.1 Fourkey Chromatic".     Print out that layout and use it as a guide when using the Seydel Harp Configurator at

http://www.seydel1847.de/epages/Seydel.sf/secY42qYIHOC16/?ObjectPath=/Shops/Seydel/Products/51480(sp)&ViewAction=ViewHarpConfigurator

At that page select "enter notes manually" with "international" naming and "continue" and it will bring you to a page where you can enter the layout manually.   It's a little tricky because Seydel wants all the slide IN reeds (blow and draw) entered BELOW the numbers on the LOWER PLATE.    All the slide OUT reeds (blow and draw) must be entered ABOVE the numbers on the UPPER plate.    That's NOT how the Overblow.Com chart is set up.   

On Overblow.Com the Slide IN reeds are at the very top row (blow) and the very bottom row (draw) and are indicated with blue dots, while the Slide OUT notes are in the middle of the chart immediately above and below the numbers.  Overblow.Com's system makes more sense to me, but just be aware of the difference when you enter the notes in the Seydel Configurator.

In the Seydel configurator be sure to check off ALL the valve boxes.   You want all the reeds to be valved.   In my experience, half-valving doesn't work well on Seydel Chromatic Deluxe harps.     Also make sure you select EQUAL TEMPERMENT.

When you're done configuring the reeds, click CONTINUE to move on to the next page where you can check the layout a final time and then move on to your checkout basket.

Unfortunately it looks like Seydel has raised their prices recently.   In the USA a "LeGato" will now cost you $211.     

As for the transition,  I guess that depends on how long you've been seriously playing the Solo tuning.    You'll need to put the Solo tuning aside for a while and play LeGato exclusively for at least a few months.   Tab out some simple scales and melodies and practice them frequently.   Post your progress here and I can try and help with any issues you may run into.   

Thank you.

[Bernhard]

So as I undrstand it the rule is thus:  If you are working in the key of C a given octave is mumbered starting with C (ex. C4, D4 E4 etc.).  If you are working in the key of A a given octave is numbered starting with A (ex. A3, B3, C3, etc.) is this correct?

No, it's not! The number always changes with any new "C". So C3 is always far lower than A3. No matter what key you are in. Take a standard 12 holer and +1 will be C4, +4/+5 will be C5, +8/+9 will be C6.

It's ...G3 A3 B3 C4 D4 E4 F4 G4 A4 B4 C5 D5 E5 F5 G5 A5 B5 C6...

Bernhard

[samtheman]

If that chart is meant to mimic the Seydel configurator then you've got the top and bottom plates reversed!   The top plate (above the numbers) is supposed to be slide OUT and the blow should go C,D,F,G,A

The bottom plate (below the numbers) is supposed to be slide IN and the blow should go C#, D#, F#, G#, A#.   


I know its confusing as [heck].  The only way I was able to figure out their system was by looking at one of their presets,   Bebop Tuning for instance, and see where they've got the slide in and slide out reeds.

Good thing I held off on my order, waiting for your reply.  I just have to print out a Seydel standard C and then rebuild the LeGato based on that.   If you don't mind I'll post my final (I hope) layout here.

Sam

[samtheman]

So as I undrstand it the rule is thus:  If you are working in the key of C a given octave is mumbered starting with C (ex. C4, D4 E4 etc.).  If you are working in the key of A a given octave is numbered starting with A (ex. A3, B3, C3, etc.) is this correct?

No, it's not! The number always changes with any new "C". So C3 is always far lower than A3. No matter what key you are in. Take a standard 12 holer and +1 will be C4, +4/+5 will be C5, +8/+9 will be C6.

It's ...G3 A3 B3 C4 D4 E4 F4 G4 A4 B4 C5 D5 E5 F5 G5 A5 B5 C6...

Bernhard

I'm sory if I am being dense about this but the abov makes no sense to me...

Sam

[Bernhard]

Sorry, I will try to be more concise: You asked about the numbering of the octaves. You proposed, that the numbering changes depending on the key you are in and asked whether that was true. I said, that it was not true because the numbering does not depend on the key.

You gave the following example: A3 B3 C3
But if you meant the first three notes of A minor it is A3 B3 C4

Does it make sense now?
Bernhard

[Jason Rogers]

Hey Chesper that sounds great!  Is that one of the new Seydel acrylics you're playing?  Very nice indeed.   I have a request though, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear you play some major scale runs.   I heard a lot of minorish stuff and some cool Dominant 7 stuff, which I know the Dimi tuning is well suited for.   But I'd like to know if it still sounds that smooth on major scales.

But I'm definitely impressed with the tone you're getting out of that Seydel!

Hey Jaz, Hey Sam, thanks for your nice comments.  I've been trying to get a better tone!  I do have a dimi Seydel (wood comb) but the one I was playing there was a Hering.  I changed out the top cover plate for a bottom on because the numbers were bothering my lip - that may have made it harder to identify in the video.

I hope I'm not detracting from the LeGato discussion - it's not my intention.  But the dimi came up, so I chimed in.  I threw together a video of me noodling around in various major keys on the dimi, just so you could get a flavor. 

 

Let me know what you think, and I'd love to hear more of the LeGato on video as well!

Good luck with the Seydel Configurator.  It's a really great thing that Seydel offers these custom tunings!

Jason

[jazmaan]

Another nice video, thanks.  I'll try to make a video this weekend featuring some of the licks from the "250 Jazz Patterns" book.    I have some questions about the Dimi tuning, but maybe we should start another topic for them.   But here's one that sort of relates to LeGato tuning: 

On the Dimi tuning, how do you choose between enharmonics?    On the LeGato where there's two different ways of doing almost everything, my choices are very methodical:  I always go for the choice with the fewest number of breath direction changes.    And its usually pretty obvious which choice that is.   

But on the Dimi, it looks to me like your legato opportunities are very limited and you're almost always going to be faced with breath direction changes no matter what you're trying to play.   So do you usually just go for the slide-out enharmonic choices in order to minimize button pushes?   

Also I was just looking at the availablity of legato whole-step triplets on the Dimi.     It looks to me like you can make 6 out of 12 whole step triplets without changing breath direction as compared to Solo tuning which only offers 3 out of 12 (A-B-A,Bb-C-Bb, C-D-C) .   But still only half of what you get with LeGato tuning where all 12 whole step triplets are available.

8 out of 12 half step triplets are available without changing breath direction in Dimi tuning compared to 7 out of 12 on Solo tuning and 10 out of 12 on LeGato.

[Jason Rogers]

Hey Jaz,

I actually just put up one more video, to clarify the major scale thing.  It's just the major scales, played in stepwise fashion, up and down.

http://www.youtube.com/jasoncrogers#p/a/u/0/mLQLT-rOyqM

I'll try to make a video this weekend featuring some of the licks from the "250 Jazz Patterns" book. 

Great!

On the Dimi tuning, how do you choose between enharmonics?  So do you usually just go for the slide-out enharmonic choices in order to minimize button pushes?   

No.  I think I do the same thing that you describe, which is to keep the breath direction the same as much as possible, unless I want a certain articulation of a breath change.

Also I was just looking at the availablity of legato whole-step triplets on the Dimi.     It looks to me like you can make 6 out of 12 whole step triplets without changing breath direction

Actually, 8 out of 12 can be done.

A-B-A and Bb-C-Bb work, B-C#-B doesn’t.

8 out of 12 half step triplets are available without changing breath direction in Dimi tuning

That’s correct.

Intervallic leaps are the trade off.  Dimi has 8 out of 12 perfect fourths available in adjacent holes and 4 out of 12 tritones available in adjacent holes.

How does that compare to legato?  (Solo has some interesting advantages here, with a fourth available in the same breath direction in adjacent holes).

[jazmaan]

I was just watching your major scale video.  I think I must have been on YouTube while you were uploading it.   I will do the same thing with the major scales this weekend and you will see how much smoother those scales can sound when you can play an entire scale in one uninterrupted breath!   

I'll investigate your tritone and perfect fourth questions and get back to you.

[Grizzly]

Jason, your playing is very smooth in dimi on those scales; however, the breath exchanges, which I assume are less frequent than with solo tuning, to my ears add a certain inconsistency in articulation that would be less of an issue playing scales in solo tuning. Right off the bat, I think only the Eb scale, among the common keys, would have fewer breath exchanges than the other common keys in solo tuning.

I don't mind the breath exchanges, and can "fake" one for A-B (in a C scale, for instance) to be consistent with the other notes.

I'm looking forward to hearing Jazmaan's recording of legato playing for comparison.

Tom

[Jason Rogers]

Hey Tom,

I fully agree with your comments.  It's interesting that I arrived at this point of recording stepwise major scales on the dimi as I have somewhat avoided them in my study of the dimi.  I say avoided because stepwise diatonic scales don't seem to be the dimi's forte.  I've always tried to find out what the dimi did best and focused on that.

I assume I could improve the articulation of these scales if I really put some time into them, but I think the demonstration and your conclusions are basically sound.

Some of the things that come to mind that the dimi does well are arpeggios, some inversions of triads, blues, diminished scales (of course), pentatonics (although other tunings may be better), melodic minor scales, and I could go on.... And best of all may be its key neutrality / universality.

Tom, what would you say to doing a solo tuning recording of 3 major scales - the best key and two of the harder keys? 

Jason

[DimiDude]

however, the breath exchanges, which I assume are less frequent than with solo tuning, to my ears add a certain inconsistency in articulation that would be less of an issue playing scales in solo tuning.

Tom are you arguing that more forced breath exchanges are a good thing?  In dimi there are 4 enharmonics so if one wanted to one could play the scales with more breath exchanges if one wanted to.  Or 'fake it' as you mentioned.   But it's nice to have choices.  That's what these tunings are about - more choices.  Of course there are always tradeoffs, but having the ability to minimize breath exchanges is not one of them to me.

Steve

[Jason Rogers]

Great point Steve.

For example, a G Major scale could be played:

blow G  draw A
draw B
blow C  draw D
blow E draw  F#

and similar patterns hold true for the other 2 major scale patterns.