Augmented/Diminished tuning fan club?!

[Jp]

I wasn't too crazy about them either. That said, probably a much easier entry point than getting a custom made. I didn't start with a Seydel, but I think if I had, I'd have had the same experience in liking the tuning and then I would have gotten a custom after.

[joculi]

I found I could avoid the sticking slide by rinsing the mouthpiece in a trickle of water after playing.  I have not had a spring break yet.  I do have a reed that has just gone flat and wobbly.  I wonder whether I blew it out.  That is after a year of daily playing on this chrome.

Sean

[Pbaughman]

I just sent off my cx12 plates to Brendan Powers to be retuned to diminished. I'm getting the power comb and slider too. Can't wait.
I started learning solo tuned and got as far as all twelve major scales. It seemed like such a monumental task, I started to wonder if I would have enough time to actually learn the instrument well enough to play for someone.  Then I heard about diminished. 3 patterns seem much more manageable than 12.
I also read a quote from Adler , I think that was his name. He said that a chromatic player should always try to play in C. That was very discouraging to me.
Learning about the diminished tuning was very exciting.

[Edward Brock]

I just sent off my cx12 plates to Brendan Powers to be retuned to diminished. I'm getting the power comb and slider too. Can't wait.
I started learning solo tuned and got as far as all twelve major scales. It seemed like such a monumental task, I started to wonder if I would have enough time to actually learn the instrument well enough to play for someone.  Then I heard about diminished. 3 patterns seem much more manageable than 12.
I also read a quote from Adler , I think that was his name. He said that a chromatic player should always try to play in C. That was very discouraging to me.
Learning about the diminished tuning was very exciting.

I don't know much about diminished but I have to think you will have one Jim Dandy harmonica
when you get it back from Brendan. That will be one to write home about for sure.

[John Broecker]

I'm not a regular player of the symmetrical reed placement systems,
but I enjoy experimenting to find the positives of each system.

I have a C diminished Hohner Super 64, with reed plates from Mike Easton.

I also have a C tenor (baritone) circular Seydel Chromatic Deluxe, a custom job
by Seydel.  For me, sight reading is much easier on the circular than on the solo
system or dimi.

I haven't spent much time on circular or dimi system slide chromatics, but I like
the basketful of chords on the circular, and the easy exhale-inhale patterns of the dimi.

JB

[Pbaughman]

Up to now I haven't heard much about circular tuning.

[John Broecker]

Circular = Zircular = Spiral systems:

In the following chart, key of C, the large letters are exhale reeds, the small letters are inhale reeds.
The chart starts at the left, the lowest pitched reed, piano range C3-F6 (E#6).

On a 12-mouthpiece holes slide chromatic:

||C   d   |E   f  |G    a  |B   c   |D    e  |F    g  |A   b  |C   d   |E   f   |G    a  |B    c  |D   e  || slide out
||C# d#|E# f#|G# a#|B# c# |D# e#|F# g#|A# b#|C# d#|E# f#|G# a#|B# c#|D# e#|| slide in

Our circular system expert, Robert Coble, starts his version on the first G reed on the above chart,
if I remember correctly.

As you see in the chart, chords through 9ths (an open mouth of 5 holes' length) are practical, and
chords through 13ths are possible with a wider embouchure. This occurs starting on any reed,
and the harmonica is totally chromatic, with a range of 3.25 octaves.

The circular system spelling has the same setup as playing any 7-note scale written in traditional
music notation: Each note in a space is an exhale reed, each note on a line is an inhale reed.

The C scale starts in the bass clef's second space exhale, and the next C scale is piano middle C
inhale, on a ledger line. The next octave starts on the C treble clef space exhale, and the 4th
octave starts on the C ledger line inhale, above the treble clef.

There are no redundant, same breath, adjacent "do" or "fa" reeds, but there are a few enharmonics
(same pitch, spelled differently), with an opposite breath direction.

Octave splits aren't possible on the circular harp, because the octaves are reversed in breath patterns:
one C note exhale is followed an octave above, with an inhale C breath. Since I don't use octave splits,
there is no loss for me.

JB

[Pbaughman]

It sounds rather difficult . Do you find it harder than the diminished or augmented tunings ?

[John Broecker]

Hello, Pbaughman

Playing a circular or diminished harp is easy.

Playing a diatonic scale on a circular harp (see the charts below), the exhale-inhale pattern stays the same*
through the range of the instrument. It's either all blow-draw, or all draw-blow, depending on the scale played,
and the octave position on the harp.

||C d |E f |G a |B  c |D e |F g |A b |C d |E f |G a |B  c |D e || slide out: blow-draw pattern throughout

||f |G a (a#)** | c |D e |F g |A (A#)|C d |E  f |G a (a#) | c |D e  |F (e#)|| Key of F, one flat (with slide)

* The air direction is changed from one octave to the next, but the air pattern (C C# or c c#) remains the same.
**(a# draw is bb draw; A# blow is Bb blow )

Playing a chromatic scale, the exhale-inhale pattern adds the slide in or out (see the chart below),
but the letter's breath pattern remains the same for the natural and sharped reeds. They are either
both exhale  C C# or both inhale c c#, both reeds same scale pattern, using the slide button in or out.

||C   d    |E   f    |G    a   |B   c   | etc.   || slide out
||C# d# |E# f#  |G# a# |B# c#| etc.   || slide in

I don't have an augmented scale harmonica, but the diminished is an easy system, and so is the
circular system, but for different reasons.

Since I rarely use either diminished or circular, I'm not an expert on either system.

JB

[SaxonyFan]

Big fan of alternate tuning!! Diminished or augmented (AKA whole tone). Pick one and stick with it. Hopefully all manufacturers will one day offer these two tunings.

[Jason Rogers]

Hey Robert,

You can play any musical key on any key Dimi Chrom, so with regards to that, it doesn't matter what key Dimi you have.

However, with regards to availability, stock chromatics in keys of C and G are more readily available, and these can be re-tuned to C and G Dimi.  (Or, I think also to Db and Ab Dimi.  Maybe Gary will correct me here).

IMO, the trouble with a C Dimi is that it is often nice to have a few notes lower than C.  But you can certainly work around that.

I have always played a Dimi in A, and that extra minor third lower gives me almost all the range I need.  Luckily, many brands have chroms available in A.

A G Dimi is a good choice because of availability and range.

I have thought about getting an "orchestra tuned chrom" in C (starting on G below C) and retuning it to an F# Dimi.

I think you can't go wrong, whatever you choose.

I have some reading materials available here if you'd like to read more:  https://jasonharmonica.com/

[Eugene]

Hey Robert, you may have clicked on the strikethrough icon while you were typing your post. To remove the lines through / strikethrough on your text, you'd have to click on modiy and remove anything in square brackets, then post again.

Jason is exactly right. You can play in any key on any keyed dimi, but probably C or G are more common. If you were interested in keeping as much of your current "position" knowledge on dia or chrom, one way of thinking about it is the following:
1st position = hole 1 blow slide out (for example, G)
2nd position = hole 1 blow slide in (for example, Ab)
3rd position = hole 1 draw slide out (for example, A)

Then think about the other notes that are available in adjacent holes:
1. G Bb Db E
2. Ab B D F
3. A C Eb Gb/F#

That's for a G harmonica. So if you like playing 3rd position in A or C (and minors) a G harmonica would be good. If you wanted to play in 3rd position in E, you'd need a F, D, Ab or B diminished tuned chrom.It's probably best to look at note layouts for various keyed dimis.

Note that this kind of thinking is really just a bridge to get someone from thinking of diatonic into thinking/playing on a dimi, but there is a kind of a long-term effect too, for example I've put some blues harp solos on dimi chrom and they work better in certain positions.

C and G chromatics are fairly easily available.

I would say the most important thing to do is get your hands on one and try it out.

I hope that helps and doesn't confuse too much!

[Gnarly He Man]

However, with regards to availability, stock chromatics in keys of C and G are more readily available, and these can be re-tuned to C and G Dimi.  (Or, I think also to Db and Ab Dimi.  Maybe Gary will correct me here).

When I look at retuning a standard chromatic to diminished, I try to find a combination that will allow me to lower notes rather than raise them. So C to C diminished works, and G to F# diminished is pretty good too. Kind of an "Orchestra tuning", blow 3 is C.
Seydel will make you a diminished chromatic, but I would like to mention that I am available for this service.

[Gnarly He Man]

Thank you, Jason, for your reply.  I will go to your Soundcloud site as I am guessing I will hear your dimi chromatics there, yes? I'll check out the suggested reading materials link you sent, very good of you there, thanks. I am purely a hobbiest player, have been at it since 1973, Butterfield was THE one who gave me the harp bug.  I know my way around diatonic quite well, chro less so.  I have been going through a huge surge of interest in the harp for the past year or so thanks to having taught myself obs on the diatonic, learning to gap and wax rivet ends, if needed [Brendan's nail art pen idea is next] and have invested in several Natural Minor diatonics, a Seydel Orchestra S in D and I have an Easttop EDharmonica in "C". I attend a blues-themed open mic every Sunday so my efforts are PLAYING, not paying, off. My ears are wide open these days, I am actually developing a better sense of relative pitch and hearing intervals within the harp is becoming second nature, slowly.  I failed ear training back 1980-82 when I attempted to study music from the ground up at a community college known for its 2-year jazz program. I did glean just enough theory, though, to allow me to better understand some of the various formulas within music and to be able to dicuss my musical ideas better though I must confess I am a wicked procrastinator so I am where I am. At 63 now, I guess you could say I am FINALLY settling down, focusing on my music. There are many ways to play the same sounding notes so what I am looking for is the preferred path, as trilhas pra mais, the paths to more, more paths to the same notes we all hear, hence my interest in the dimi chro, yet another way to get to the same place, maybe faster and easier.

There were a couple of strike thru commands I removed.

[Gnarly He Man]

strikethrough

You triggered it by enclosing an s in the brackets ([]).

[cvonroesgen]

Hello everyone!

I had a chromatic harp made to this tuning:

http://harpconfigurator.seydel1847.de/druck.asp?be=20171213032849_70474729&locale=en_US&layout=en

It's three holes per octave. Is this the tuning that is referred to here as augmented?

[SaxonyFan]

Hello everyone!

I had a chromatic harp made to this tuning:

http://harpconfigurator.seydel1847.de/druck.asp?be=20171213032849_70474729&locale=en_US&layout=en

It's three holes per octave. Is this the tuning that is referred to here as augmented?

Yep. That’s the one.

[EZ-Slider]

Well I just retuned my first chrom! I acquired a "golden butterfly" for free recently and decided to go ahead and tune it to C dimi. Only really had a chance to play some scales on it. So far it feels very intuitive. Helps me make decisions about my future chroms. Planning to tune a SCX 48. Seydel Symphony 48 in G dimi in the near future too.
      EZ
       

[SaxonyFan]

Well I just retuned my first chrom! I acquired a "golden butterfly" for free recently and decided to go ahead and tune it to C dimi. Only really had a chance to play some scales on it. So far it feels very intuitive. Helps me make decisions about my future chroms. Planning to tune a SCX 48. Seydel Symphony 48 in G dimi in the near future too.
      EZ
       

While the dimi layout is superior to the solo layout and a much easier retune job than going to the augmented layout I implore you to consider the augmented (Aka wholetone) layout. Here’s my suggestion free of charge (you get what you pay for): Play with the dimi for a little while and if you appreciate the intuitiveness of the layout then go with the augmented before getting locked-in to the dimi layout. Of course this means shelling out bucks for a new harp but that’s a small price to pay for bliss in your pocket.

[Jason Rogers]

Nice work, EZ!  I've been tempted by a Symphony 48 in Dimi lately too!   

[SaxonyFan]

Nice work, EZ!  I've been tempted by a Symphony 48 in Dimi lately too!   

I’m curious why you are entertaining the diminished rather than the augmented layout.

[Jason Rogers]

Saxony Fan says:

While the dimi layout is superior to the solo layout (a much easier retune than the augmented) I implore you to consider the augmented (Aka wholetone) layout. Here’s my suggestion free of charge (you get what you pay for): Play with the dimi for a little while and if you appreciate the intuitiveness of the layout then go with the augmented before getting locked-in to the dimi layout. Of course this means shelling out bucks for a new harp but that’s a small price to pay for bliss in your pocket.

Thanks for your thoughts, Saxony.  You make me think.  The Dimi is so very awesome for so many reasons that I can't imagine the augmented being better.  BUT, I realize I've never tried it.  I should.  What instrument do you play most?  A Saxony in Augmented?

Ha ha, you posted while I was writing.  I have more than entertained the Dimi, LOL   I know it pretty darn well.  And the advantages are enormous in my opinion.  BUT, still, I should try the Augmented one of these days.

[Jason Rogers]

One of the amazing things about the Dimi is that you get all the benefits of a symmetrical layout (regular intervals, tranpose-ability, etc.) but at the same time, it's surprisingly tonal.

For example:

If you take a slide-out dorian tetrachord: C D Eb F (from C diminished slide-out)

and a slide-in tetrachord: G A Bb C (from Db Diminished slide-in)

You get a C Dorian scale.

Merge that with the native C Diminished [C D Eb F Gb Ab A B] and you get:

C D Eb F G A Bb = C Dorian
C D Eb F G A B = C Melodic Minor
C D Eb F Gb A Bb = Bb Harmonic Major
C D Eb F Gb G A Bb = C Blues
C D Eb F# G A Bb = G Harmonic Minor
  D Eb F# G Bb B  = Eb Augmented
C D Eb F Gb Ab A B = C Diminished

Merge it with Db Dimi (All slide in) and you get:
C Db Eb F G A Bb = Eb Lydian b7
C Db Eb E F# G A Bb = C Half-Whole Dim.

So all of those colors are immediately available - almost built-in.

...And with enharmonics on C, Eb, Gb, and A!  It makes all those colors listed above VERY playable.

And, this is duplicated in four keys (C Eb Gb A). 

Plus it pretty much works in the other two positions as well (giving all 12 keys).

Another amazing thing: 

A subset of C Diminished happens to be the native scale below (no slide movement):

F G# (Ab) A C D

and its relative minor

D F G# (Ab) A C.  There's a lot of stuff you can do with that, especially if you're willing to bend the Ab a little.

And you can get those a half step up, with the slide, of course.

Anyhoo, didn't mean to over-explain there, sorry, but hey, it's on my mind... i wrote this up very quickly so excuse any typos, there's so much to add, but that's for another day.

And, whether one wants to think like this or not it's still there, built-in, waiting to be accessed... 

PS. This doesn't even account for half-valved Dimi
PPS. I'd still like to try Augmented.
 

[Gnarly He Man]

One of the amazing things about the Dimi is that you get all the benefits of a symmetrical layout (regular intervals, tranpose-ability, etc.) but at the same time, it's surprisingly tonal.

For example:

If you take a slide-out dorian tetrachord: C D Eb F (from C diminished slide-out)
<snip>
Anyhoo, didn't mean to over-explain there, sorry, but hey, it's on my mind... i wrote this up very quickly so excuse any typos, there's so much to add, but that's for another day.

And, whether one wants to think like this or not it's still there, built-in, waiting to be accessed... 

Hey, free lessons, what’s not to like…
I just retuned a brass combed Easttop 16 to diminished for a local player. So I got to practice a little!
And I have another to do for someone else—I will investigate your tutorial.

[EZ-Slider]

Thanks for the great feedback guys! Just finished successful and uneventful initial tune on my SCX48.. Blue tac is some neat stuff.   
Saxony Fan why do you prefer augmented to dimi? I play a lot of melody and had heard augmented can be a bit choppy. I do like the idea of a three hole octave, and figure if I went that rout I would just get a 10 hole.
The enharmonics with dimi are what I really like abt it as opposed to augmented.. Having options abt what way I want to be breathing. Perhaps the shear volume of information I found on dimi helped with my decision too.
Want to give a shout out to Gary for giving me just enough confidence to start tearing in to my harps. Thanks man!
EZ

[Gnarly He Man]

Just saw some of that blue putty stuff at a local hardware store—I have never tried it but Brendan recommends it—glad it’s working for you!

[EZ-Slider]

Just saw some of that blue putty stuff at a local hardware store—I have never tried it but Brendan recommends it—glad it’s working for you!

Yeah, been mostly in bed with high fever and flu from [heck] for several days.. As annoyed as I'm sure the wife is with my constant buzzing of reeds, somehow I figure she would even less enthusiastic abt me running my soldering iron in the bedroom ;-)
The blue tac is neat, and fast, but I can for sure see the benefit of solder in that once it's done it's done. The tac you need to be careful to not smear it off the reed when disassembling and reassembling. Although there is next to no moving of metal with the tac method, causing me to wonder if it stabilizes faster.

[Eugene]

Hey EZSlider,

Well done on the retuning job! It can be daunting to retune a whole chrom, but hopefully you'll have shown others that it's doable too - thanks for the write-up.

Gary, do you get many customers opting for dimi? Sounds like there may be quite a few. Feel free to give them my details or of the SM site. I used to know the guys that posted semi-regularly here but it's probably a different (expanded?) crew now.

SaxonyFan, I'd love to try an augmented harp too - but the dimi is doing what I need it to (eventually) so for me at the moment it's not a high priority, what with retuning etc.

[SaxonyFan]

Thanks for the great feedback guys! Just finished successful and uneventful initial tune on my SCX48.. Blue tac is some neat stuff.   
Saxony Fan why do you prefer augmented to dimi? I play a lot of melody and had heard augmented can be a bit choppy. I do like the idea of a three hole octave, and figure if I went that rout I would just get a 10 hole.
The enharmonics with dimi are what I really like abt it as opposed to augmented.. Having options abt what way I want to be breathing. Perhaps the shear volume of information I found on dimi helped with my decision too.
Want to give a shout out to Gary for giving me just enough confidence to start tearing in to my harps. Thanks man!
EZ

Where did you hear that augmented was choppy? It’s no more choppy than any chromatic harmonica. How could it be any more so? That doesn’t make any sense.

[EZ-Slider]

Hey EZSlider,

Well done on the retuning job! It can be daunting to retune a whole chrom, but hopefully you'll have shown others that it's doable too - thanks for the write-up. 

                                           
Thanks for the encouragement! Yeah not so scary once you get in to it.. I did it half delirious with a 102.5 fever not that I would recommend such. Tuned my fist harp a week ago.. A G blues harp to D melody maker. Granted I have a fair bit of experience with delicate intricate tiny and frustrating things, but it's pretty simple. Not to say folks like Gary with decades of experience don't have a wealth of knowledge.. But they started on their first harp once too. I find it kinda cathartic too.