True Chromatic vs. Power Chromatic vs. other?

[smojoe]

I's be tempted to agree A.J. Any time your harp goes south and you can run over to Mrs. Yost's candy store and buy another one, then all you have to do is take off the cover's and retune ONE reed a mere step, I feel this can be done in an emergency with just a p-38 can opener and the striker off of a match book. In other words..by yourself...and immediately.
To me an altered tuning is one which takes serious work and may be out of the realm of the hobbyist player and not replaceable in an emergency.

smo-j

[SlideMeister]

I'm also tempted to do it to one of my axes J.F.F. 

[Gnarly He Man]

You guys are right--it's too easy.
That's why what I actually do is buy a 12 hole G chrom and retune it such that it starts on G and has blow holes 2, 6, and 10 retuned to Bb (blow button to B)--and the top hole (12) has a G6 note on the draw button, draw 12 is F#6.
Not available in stores . . .
But having made both of the slide harps in the topic, I wouldn't recommend them--I like the Power Chromatic, but not enough to make a slide harmonica with that tuning my main axe.
Dimi is pretty cool, so is aug, but I have found my favorite!
G

[SlideMeister]

So whaddyagot there? A 12 hole, BeBopped MeisterKlass?

[Gnarly He Man]

Yep--although these days, I am calling it Orchestra, as Seydel does.
The top hole is | E f | F# g | so that I can get the high G--so it has the same tuning relationship most of the reeds do; blow, blow button, draw, draw button--e.g., hole 1.
That, BTW, is the basis of augmented tuning; i.e., four notes on a hole.
I put that last sentence in so that I could use e.g. and i.e. in the same post.
I need a hobby--oh, wait . . . never mind . . .
Any questions?
"Yeah, why don't you practice your harmonica?"
Class dismissed 

[SlideMeister]

That, BTW, is the basis of augmented tuning; i.e., four notes on a reed.

You mean four notes on a hole, no?

[Gnarly He Man]

That, BTW, is the basis of augmented tuning; i.e., four notes on a reed.

You mean four notes on a hole, no?

Yes--
That post was at 3 in the am West Coast Time, after I drove back from Oklahoma in 26 hours.
I edited the post, thanks for the correction.

[jazmaan]

And then there are crazy people. Me, for example. Last night at the gig we were going to do 'DYKWIMTM New Orleans'. So, meanwhile I always did this tune in D (2 sharps). Mainly because I learned it for clarinet/trumpet. The tune is in C. So, I would take a Bb chromatic, play it in D and the 2 sharps would cancel out the 2 flats and I would wind up IN C. PLUSSSSSSSSS the draw key sounds better. More moaning is possible.

Whelllllll, I went and picked up an F by mistake. 2 notes into the tune I realized my mistake and proceeded to play the tune in G. So now the 1 sharp cancelled the 1 flat of the chromatic, and I STILL wound up in C. My point? I am so used to adjusting on the spot because I know the addresses of all the notes, picture the tune in my head (rote), that standard tuning works for me. THIS is where I'm having trouble with altered tunings.

It's like a shot put guy trying to switch to discus....or better yet pole vaulting. You've heard of Saint Louis? Saint Thomas? Well, saint happening. 'Trying to teach old dogs new tricks syndrome'. lol

smo-joe

Smokey, have you actually TRIED learning an altered chromatic tuning?   You might be surprised how much unused space you've got in your noodle to accomodate more than one tuning.     You say you've got all the addresses in your head.   Okay, but just because you know all the addresses on one block of your neighborhood, doesn't mean you couldn't walk across the street and eventually learn all the addresses on that block too.   And it doesn't mean you'll forget the addresses on your home block.

[AW]

So how does ones ability/desire to bend notes affect the decision on a tuning?

I can bend on a diatonic reasonably well.  Overblow and overdraw on some keys but not others. 

I've got one diatonic with valves but I don't find the garnered blow bends particularly musical when I play them. 

I've read some other threads and agree with the variable texture of a tone played bent versus natural (and draw vs blow).  I also agree that there will be different phrases that sound better playing the notes one way versus the other.   Having never really tried to bend on a chromatic, I'm curious how that might influence the decision. 

[chromaddict]

So how does ones ability/desire to bend notes affect the decision on a tuning?

If you want to do normal valved bends, then it wouldn't affect your decision.  However, if you want interactive (or dual) reed bends, you could choose to half valve (remove the outside valves) of your chromatic.  Here is an explanation from Brendan Power about how half valve bends work:

"Half-valving means that the lower of the two reeds in an air channel is valve-affected, while the higher pitched one is not. In practical terms, if you visualise a blow C and draw D, the valve would be glued on the inside of the draw reedplate opposite the draw reed on the outside of the plate. Thus, when you draw, the valve lifts up and allows the normal interaction between blow and draw reeds that happens on a typical diatonic harp (because some air still comes through the blow reed slot), allowing bending of the draw down to Db. (That's how it sounds but, as we now know, what's really happening is that the C is rising to C#.) (Richard Hunter note: this is true, though not necessarily well-known among harmonica players. When you bend, it's the other reed in the slot that's making the altered pitch, not the one you're bending.)
However, when you blow, the valve closes over the draw reed slot and all your air goes to the blow reed, allowing the kind of valved bending and vibrato that you get on a chromatic harmonica (where both reeds are affected by valves). To me, half-valving gives the best of both worlds, as it allows the normal high reed bending as on a standard diatonic, but also pitch bend on the lower reed."

In order for this to work, you need at least a whole step difference between the blow and draw note.  So on standard tuning, you can get this type of bend on the D and the A.

Other tunings, such as augmented and diminished, have the whole step configuration on every hole, so you can get the dual style reed bend on every draw note.

You need a very airtight chromatic for this to work well.  The best choices are the CX-12 and G-48/Sirius models.  You may also have to adjust the gapping to get the desired results, which will vary according to your playing style and experience.

[chromaddict]

Smokey, have you actually TRIED learning an altered chromatic tuning?   You might be surprised how much unused space you've got in your noodle to accomodate more than one tuning.     You say you've got all the addresses in your head.   Okay, but just because you know all the addresses on one block of your neighborhood, doesn't mean you couldn't walk across the street and eventually learn all the addresses on that block too.   And it doesn't mean you'll forget the addresses on your home block.

I gave Joe one of my dimi harmonicas at last year's SPAH.  I don't think he took to it, but it makes me happy to know that he has it. 
   

[AW]

So I decided to try out bebop tuning as it seems like the best starting point and I can get retuned plates for my existing chromatic as an affordable way to try it out.

Thanks for all your inputs.

[roady43]

I'd be tempted to argue that BeBop is such a mild mod that hardly even qualifies as an Alternate tuning, no?

It's a question of how you look at it or what you are used to. For me augmented is standart since I begun to play the harmonica, playing solo-tuning (which I have to at about 3 places of a movie soundtrack score where minor chords are needed) I use special marks on the harmonica and in the music to solve the alternate situation.

roady43

[Brendan Power]

Interesting thread... There are different criteria to apply when choosing a tuning. What music you want to play is a big one, and how you want to play is another.

I agree that Diminished and Augmented are the most logical tunings for chromatics - in theory. For a jazz improviser they would be obvious choices, as Keith from Netherlands related.

They are GREAT for key modulation and reducing pattern learning. However, playing fast flowing major and minor scale melodies is not easy on them. For example, there is no way you could get the speed and agility on Dimi or Aug chroms to play a fast fiddle tune, because even the simplest major or minor pentatonic phrase is going to require slide shifting. Try doing that at the speed of a typical Irish or Bluegrass fiddle tune and the notes will be glitching constantly.

Having them half-valved helps, as it means you can use draw bend enharmonics instead of the slider notes in many cases - but even then your pitching and bend control needs to be really accurate. At high speeds that is very difficult.

Of course many cool jazzy phrases and scales will flow really easily on these Alt tuned chroms, much smoother and faster than Solo, but when it comes to simple major and minor keys, at speed you have to play in a more staccato fashion to avoid slide glitches. Stevie Wonder is a master of that approach.

That's fine, but to play fast legato major/minor melodies on the harmonica you can't beat playing in the home or related mode of the home key, where all the notes are built in. However 'illogical' Solo may be for a jazz player, playing fast and flowing in keys like C, F, G, Dm, Am on it is way easier than a C Dimi or Augmented.

That's why Toots chose Key C for his fastest tune ever, "Scotch on the Rocks". He could only play the melody that fast because the tune is in C and all the notes are laid out with no slider shifts. There is no way he or anyone else could play it at that speed in any other key.

We're lucky with harmonicas to be able to buy them in different keys. Why not embrace that and use it to our advantage to play music that sounds good? My approach is to play chroms in different keys to get that easy flow and speed in any key without strain. I also alter the tuning and half-valve my chroms to give extra bending expression and more enharmonics.

I can modulate keys easily enough on any of my chroms, and do all the time if I'm playing jazz. I know a lot of chrom players who cannot get their heads around playing anything except a key C instrument, but it's easy to train yourself to overcome that - the human brain is immensely flexible.

It makes life a LOT easier, and ease translates into feeling and sounding relaxed. It's the same as a guitarist shifting positions on the neck, or using a capo. He/she will use the same fingering patterns but they come out in different keys depending what fret they're played. If you think numbers of the scale instead of note names it's easy to forget what key you're in and just play according to the chord you're on: a 1 chord, 2 chord etc, major/minor/diminished or whatever.

I'm not saying my approach is for everyone, and I have huge respect for people who play all keys well on one harmonica. But my benchmark is how the music I want to play sounds on the main instruments of that style - for example the fiddle/flute in Irish music. If I can't keep up with them and play in the authentic manner of the style on a C chromatic then I'll switch to a G or D or whatever suits, and alter it into the bargain until everything works for the style. Same with Bulgarian music, Chinese music etc The music is what matters, not some arbitrary law about playing everything on one harmonica.

It's similar to what Howard Levy does on the overblow diatonic. He can play in all keys on one harp, but he still has a full set because he knows that some melodies and styles simply sound better and play easier in one position or another.

Chromatic players have the same options open to them, but very few choose the multi-key chrom approcah. In fact some look down on it as being lazy. Not so - it still takes a lot of thought and skill, and if you play jazz you still need to know all your keys and scales. But you can choose a chrom that is the easiest option for the tune.

It's the same as what sax and trumept players have been doing for ages. Look at how many jazz heads written by Charlie Parker, Lester Young, Louis Armstrong and the other jazz giants are in Bb, F, Eb... That's because they are the home or related keys for those instruments, the EASY keys. So why not get on the same page as those greats and get some chroms in F, Bb etc and those tunes will be a lost easier for you too. Try it, it'll put a smile on your face :-)

Power Chromatic is similar to Solo or Bebop in that sense: it's a tuning with all the notes of one key built in. However it also allows you to bend every draw note a semitone via half-valving, so it's more expressive than those two in my opinion. But Solo is hard to beat for sheer flow and speed.

[Grizzly]

Very well put, Brendan, and thought provoking. Both you and Joe Leone advocate different-solo-keyed harmonicas to take advantage of patterns, although Joey tends to choose related keys (F on a C harmonica, for instance) to take advantage of the draw scale.

I'm one of the lazy ones, I guess. I've stuck with solo tuned harmonicas in C. Although I can learn to play intervalically in the home key, and not rely on the names of the notes—I've tried on a G tremolo for G fiddle tunes—I stay on a C to learn classical music, primarily flute repertoire.

I'm no great shakes on chromatic, and am woefully behind in learning my scales. But I feel speed on the remote keys is a matter of knowing the instrument, and its tuning, and diligent practice. I agree that home keys are easiest; but some genres change key center, even to remote keys, that it becomes moot.

Some of the stuff I attempt to play is beyond my current skills. Flute is much easier. Then again, some of it is beyond my abilities even on flute, with which I have a 50 year advantage. If I live long enough, and get off my butt and practice, maybe I'll be as facile on harmonica.

Thanks for your insights.

Tom

[Jimmy Halfnote]

Good read Brendan , a couple of points however, the price of a decent chromatic has escalated to stupid levels in recent years , while economies have gone down the plug hole, older guys like me and retired are not at the coal face anymore, and may have a few bob saved, younger folks are struggling like crazy , with mortgages, families, and negative equity, these younger players can't afford a sackful of chromatics in different keys, even if ALL the manufacturers obliged, so in the cruel light of reality, and maybe for young players starting out, what do you recommend they do ?
           Also how about classical music and the need perhaps of a sixteen holer , or maybe folks who just get more fun and enjoyment from a sixteen holer, you mentioned Toots and Stevie how many different keyed instruments did they play ? I think there is a danger in trying to cover too many squares with a chromatic harmonica, which is Jack of all trades master of none.

                                                                                                             jh.

[keithfre]

you mentioned Toots and Stevie how many different keyed instruments did they play ?

To the best of my knowledge Toots only plays C instruments.

[Gnarly He Man]

For example, there is no way you could get the speed and agility on Dimi or Aug chroms to play a fast fiddle tune, because even the simplest major or minor pentatonic phrase is going to require slide shifting.

Trig was trying to do this, play oldtime and fiddle tunes on augmented tuned chrom. Wonder how he's doing with it?

[Gnarly He Man]

Some of the stuff I attempt to play is beyond my current skills.

Can I stand in line behind you?
I did not take a number . . .

[Grizzly]

You're first in line behind me.

Tom

[Gnarly He Man]

One of the reasons I use specialty tuned harmonicas (and I consider both True Chromatic and Power Chromatic tunings to be a specialty) is to be able to execute things which are more difficult (the same way I would require a Polyphonia if I were to attempt to play Flight of the Bumblebee).
These tunings, however, were designed to be replacements of solo tuning.
I am not that brave.
Practice is the answer--what was the question? 

[oldstudent]

I'd be tempted to argue that BeBop is such a mild mod that hardly even qualifies as an Alternate tuning, no?

Let me point out that Bebop and the pentatonic tunings share basic logic.

Select a group of 8 consecutive notes in the circle of fifths (say F,C,G,D,A,E,B,F#).  A major scale is 7 consecutive notes, so this group will contain two major scales.  Now take the first note (approached clockwise in the circle of fifths) of the group (F) and make it a blow note.  Find the next higher note among your selected group (F#) and make it the draw note in the same hole.  Then find the next higher note among your selected group (G) and make it the next blow note to the right.  Continue until you fill a 4-hole octave and repeat.  You have made a diatonic harp with bebop tuning ([blow/draw] sequence: [F/F#] [G/A] [B/C] [D/E]).  Add a button that raises everything a semitone and you have a Chromatic bebop tuned harmonica.

Now do the same thing but select a group of 10 consecutive notes in the circle of fifths (say F,C,G,D,A,E,B,F#,C#,G#).  This group will contain 4 major scales.  Again start with the first note (approached clockwise in the circle of fifths) of the group (F) as a blow note.  Find the next higher note among your selected group (F#) and make it the draw note in the same hole.  Then find the next higher note among your selected group (G) and make it the next blow note to the right.  Continue until you fill a 5-hole octave and repeat.  You have made a diatonic harp with fourkey tuning ([blow/draw] sequence: [F/F#] [G/G#] [A/B] [C/C#] [D/E]).  Add a button that raises everything a semitone and you have a Chromatic Legato harmonica.

[Gnarly He Man]

Very interesting!

[jazmaan]

There ought to be some kind of prize for people who make such astute observations! 

[jazmaan]

On a possibly related note you should check out Walter Bishop's Theory of Fourths video on YouTube.  It arose out of a simple but intriguing challenge: Play the entire Circle of Fourths within just one octave.  That led to all kinds of discoveries which are outlined in his video.