Flat Slide

[streetlegal]

I thought I'd bring this old thread up again. The first time around the general reaction was, in general, pretty negative - but maybe five years on there is more openness to divergent approaches to playing the chromatic harmonica - with more interest in alternate layouts and innovative designs.

I think the main problem here is that flat-slide playing could never appeal to experienced players, so they tend to dismiss it as unworthy of consideration - which of course it is - to them. But for a beginner who is just getting to grips with the instrument, there could be a real advantage in giving the flat-slide set-up a try-out.

That's the reason why I like to raise the flat-slide option - if only to let people know that it exists, what it is and that it is an option worth at least considering. Otherwise even the idea of flat-slide chromatic harmonica playing might disappear completely from the face of the Earth. 

 

[Crawforde]

I think the flatslide approach is appropriate for people playing Traditional Music to get their ornaments, and also for those who play half Valved diatonics or X-reed instruments and are taking up chromatic Harmonicas. For those people you either play a note, or do something to it to make it lower (bend or blow bend) maybe the Flatslide will feel more natural?
Also depending on the Key and the type of music the differing set of enharmonics May enhance play if you analyzed the tunes using SmoeJoe’s method of looking at blow/ draw patterns etc...
I believe in the other thread Flatslide was discussed and it appeared to be a logical setup for playing sharp keys. Just to throw a wrench in, what if you had an Eb Bebop Flatslide?
Ab and Eb are right there without the button if you want, Bb is one sharp, F is 2, C is 3, G is 4,...
It looks like between an Eb and a C flatslide you would have all the common keys covered.
Of course this is all speculation, But maybe people who use them will chime in. 
I made a Flatslide 260 once, it was in a minor key that I built as a gift for someone who plays Middle Eastern music. It was fun to play for the short time I messed around with it, I should have built 2.

[MickyG]

Yikes! Five years ago...? At least now I know what flat-slide is all about I did try it on more than one CX-12's...don't remember much about my reaction because I didn't like/keep the CX's! I think if it had been a 'beneficial' exercise, I would have latched on to it in a heartbeat! But I'm gonna revisit the 'spring-less' version with a 280 just out of curiosity.
MickyG

[dougharps]

Flatslide would possibly have appeal to people who had played diatonics first, bending down for missing notes (without having learned overbends going up). Pushing the button to drop a half step would feel like bending and be familiar to someone transitioning.

The idea of musical conventions in specific genres using ornaments or sections of song dropping a half step would be a good reason for using flatslide. I think playing flatslide should feel similar to playing in Db on a C/Db chrom, except the button action is reversed. If you learned this way and knew where all the notes were, there would likely be pluses and minuses depending on the material. You could learn what works.

I started playing with a C chromatic at age 11, then a G, and eventually many keys, but all sharp slide. Regular sharp slide chromatic is too ingrained in me to want to change unless there were particular musical reasons in what I play that would make it be preferable.  I would likely just use the appropriate key of chromatic with the button held in and release for flat to avoid unnecessary confusion. 

Doug S.

PS I just noticed that a lot of what I just wrote is very similar to what Crawforde said.

[SlideMeister]

I personally would have absolutely zero interest in "Flat slide." I never play "Beer Barrel Polka" and even if I did, I'd just play it in some other key on one of my 270s. My B 270 would work just fine.

[gvelasco]

There are at least two "simple" explanations from a music theory perspective. I guess one has more to do with music tradition than music theory. A close relative of the chromatic harmonica is the chromatic concertina or "squeeze box" used to play Celtic and other types of folk music. Concertinas and other button accordions are differentiated by how many rows of buttons they have. If they have a single row of ten buttons - five on the left and five on the right, then it's common for them to be laid out EXACTLY like a 10-hole Richter tuned diatonic harmonica. If they have two rows, it's common for them to be in closely related keys like C and G, or D and A. If they have three rows, then they can play in one more key and quickly switch between them all. But some clever person figured out long ago that they could have one solo tuned row in C and another in B (!) - flat slide (!) - and they could play in any key. In other words, chromatic concertina. A popular key for Irish Traditional Music is D. Here are the fingerings for the key of D sharp slide and flat slide:

Notes: D E F# G A B C# D
Sharp Slide: -1 2 -2* 3 -3 -4 5* -5
Flat Slide: -1 (2, -2*) 3* 3 -3 (-4, 4*, 5*) -5* -5

Flat slide tuning gives you a lot more options. In particular concertina players are always looking for options that allow them to choose between an in and an out (blow and draw) to play the same note because direction changes are "expensive" and they can make some runs more difficult.

So let's say you're a chromatic concertina player who is used to B/C tuning (a.k.a. flat slide) because it makes playing in D easier than C/C# tuning (a.k.a. sharp slide), and you hear about this thing called a chromatic harmonica. You would be more naturally attracted to a flat slide chromatic.

Now, let's get a bit more music theory-ish. Consider the circle of fifths. It's enough to know that it has a "sharp side" that goes C -> G -> D -> A -> B. It also has a flat side that goes C -> F -> Bb -> Eb -> Ab -> Db. As you go around to the right (sharp side), you add a sharp for every key. As you go to the left (flat side), you add a flat for every key.

Guitar players tend to think of things in sharps because they like to play in sharp keys -> G, D, A, E. Horn players and piano players tend to think of things in flats because they "like" the flat keys -> F, Bb, Eb, Ab. Lots of big band or stage band standards are in flat keys.

If you're coming into the chromatic harmonica from a jazz band, stage band, horn, maybe even piano direction, you might be more comfortable thinking about things in terms of flats rather than sharps.

So there you go. Some fairly music theoretical reasons that someone might prefer flat-slide to shape-slide.

[streetlegal]

Some good insights here from Crawforde, Doug, and gvelasco. I have also been thinking of the difference in terms of playing phrases which include what I think in music theory are called 'leading tones'. My feeling is that for me, flat-slide facilitated these leading tones more easily than sharp-slide - and that could be why I felt more comfortable with flat-slide playing - that it allowed me to go with the flow, rather than against it. That the mechanical movement of the slide one half step down and then back up again was in sync with the flow of the musical phrase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading-tone

I suppose it is also possible that other players have the same feeling about sharp-slide. But it is also true that very few chromatic harmonica players ever get the opportunity to experience what playing flat-slide feels like - so it just goes by default.

[jimjams]

I personally would have absolutely zero interest in "Flat slide." I never play "Beer Barrel Polka" and even if I did, I'd just play it in some other key on one of my 270s. My B 270 would work just fine.

Exactamundo

[Beech]

Hello again everyone,

I was reading this thread and wondering: so if we consider playing flat keys easier (easier to get expression, as something of a consensus seems to be) on a sharpsliding Chromatic, would sharp keys be smoother on a flatslider?  I don't plan to change now that I'm comfortable with sharpslide, but in theory.....  I don't know.

Anyway,

Ethan

[gvelasco]

One of the things that makes flat keys "easier" to play on a chromatic harmonica is that you don't lose your redundant Cs and enharmonics as quickly as you add flats to a key as when you add sharps. We have three ways to play a C per octave. Enharmonics give us two ways to play an F (F and E#) and one of the ways to play a C (B#). The Key of G has one sharp - F#. So you immediately lose the flexibility of having two ways the play the F, one that uses a draw and the other that uses a blow. You must play the F as an F# which means you only get it as a draw note. They key of D has two sharps - F# and C#. So, now you lose one of your redundant Cs - the B# enharmonic. As you keep adding sharps - A, E, B, F# - you never get those back.

The key of F has one flat - Bb. You keep your F enharmonic (E#) and all three of your Cs. You get to keep them as you add more and more flats until you "wrap around" the circle of fifths back into the sharp keys. In addition to not losing your F and C enharmonics, which gives you more options for your lines, the natural patterns that arise as you add flats involve fewer simultaneous breath direction and/or slide change and/or hole change which makes them easier to play.

Now, think about flat slide. Your enharmonics on a flat slide harmonica are Fb = E and Cb = B. You have three ways to play a B and two ways to play a C per octave. In the key of G, you need to play an F# so this doesn't cost you your E enharmonic and it doesn't cost you your third way to play a B. The key of D uses C# and F#, so again, you don't lose your enharmonic E, but you lost both of your redundant Cs. There's only one way to play a C# on a flat slide harmonica, that's as a Db.  At least on a sharp slide harmonica you had two ways to play a C#, so it's not looking good.

Now, let's look at the flat keys on a flat slide harp. F uses a Bb. You don't lose your E enharmonic. Your Bb is easy enough. It's just a B slide in. You lose your B enharmonics - both of them. But maybe that's OK. You still have two ways to play a C. They key of Bb adds an Eb. So now that E enharmonic isn't of use to you anymore, but you still have your Cs. You don't lose any more options until you wrap around the circle of fifths and you keep your redundant blow Cs until then.

I'd have to do the analysis, but I think your flat key patterns still end up being easier and/or more flexible than your sharp key patterns even on flat slide chromatic, and I think the main reason is the redundant Cs.

[Crawforde]

And then we can throw a wrench in the mix and mention Bebop and C-6 tunings used in a flat slide  system.
Bebop Flatslide gives you a Bb as a hole 4 blow slide out, and a Bb as a hole 4 draw slide in. Eb is in the same place as E natural it just needs a slide push. My brain likes to flatten the E rather than sharpen the D.  Maybe that’s silly, but it just feels more natural.
C6 gives you 2 A and 2 Ab (G#) notes this gives nice choices for both the flat keys and for playing in A and E. Half Valved C-6 also gives a Bb with an interactive bend. 
I am doing this off the top of my head right now but I’m getting interested enough to map it out on paper and look at the options.

[jazmaan]

Hi streetlegal,

I found I couldn't access the link either.

Try this one instead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?client=mv-google&gl=US&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&v=UnQMgCiewks&nomobile=1

"That video is unavailable" says YouTube.

[streetlegal]

And then we can throw a wrench in the mix and mention Bebop and C-6 tunings used in a flat slide  system.
Bebop Flatslide gives you a Bb as a hole 4 blow slide out, and a Bb as a hole 4 draw slide in. Eb is in the same place as E natural it just needs a slide push. My brain likes to flatten the E rather than sharpen the D.  Maybe that’s silly, but it just feels more natural.
C6 gives you 2 A and 2 Ab (G#) notes this gives nice choices for both the flat keys and for playing in A and E. Half Valved C-6 also gives a Bb with an interactive bend. 
I am doing this off the top of my head right now but I’m getting interested enough to map it out on paper and look at the options.

Just to throw another spanner into the works, I should say that I play Major 7 flat-slide, rather than standard Solo flat-slide. So my four note layout pattern is quite similar to Bebop but with some hole 4 differences.

S/B    B  Eb Gb Bb
Blow   C  E  G   B
Draw   D  F  A   B
S/D     Db E Ab Bb

You can see how at hole 4 I have eliminated the duplicate Cs, in favour of duplicate Bs and B flats. This is a different approach from the Bebop Dominant layout, which is based on an 8 note 'natural' scale with Bb at hole 4 blow. There is no right or wrong way to do these things - you pays your money and you takes your choice - according to how you see things in layout terms.

[Beech]

One of the things that makes flat keys "easier" to play on a chromatic harmonica is that you don't lose your redundant Cs and enharmonics as quickly as you add flats to a key as when you add sharps. We have three ways to play a C per octave. Enharmonics give us two ways to play an F (F and E#) and one of the ways to play a C (B#). The Key of G has one sharp - F#. So you immediately lose the flexibility of having two ways the play the F, one that uses a draw and the other that uses a blow. You must play the F as an F# which means you only get it as a draw note. They key of D has two sharps - F# and C#. So, now you lose one of your redundant Cs - the B# enharmonic. As you keep adding sharps - A, E, B, F# - you never get those back.

That makes sense as far as why the flat keys tend to be easier to be smooth/expressive (per amount of practice).  Another bit of Chromatic understanding added!  I know that I like my blow Fs, to be better able to keep things smooth (or make breath rationing easier).

Ethan