Augmented/Diminished tuning fan club?!

[chromaddict]

I'm hoping for 10 or more members here.  The few the proud...

I'll accept any symmetrical tuning system without redundant notes.

I'm in.   

[chromaddict]

Ok, 15 views no fans yet, not bad, not bad.

[Grizzly]

Seems like there already is one, under a different thread. I started a fan club for CX-12s, but people post in other places, too. Good idea, though. You'll get some.

Tom

[pmelissakis]

I'm hoping for 10 or more members here.  The few the proud...

I'll accept any symmetrical tuning system without redundant notes.

I'm in.   

symmetrical ?

Does circular tuning qualify ?

Pete

[Don Lorenzo]

OK, ChromAddict,

I guess I'm in, since I'm the one that started the most recent thread on this subject (AUGMENTED Whole-Tone Slide).

We ought to be able to find 10 of us.

Don Lorenzo

[Don Lorenzo]

Hey, ChromAddict,

Pete raised a good question.  What do you mean by symetrical???

The circular tuning doesn't have any 'accidentals', only the 7 notes of the major scale.  AND IT IS CERTAINLY NOT AUGMENTED.  The AUGMENTED Chord is made up of a 'triad' of notes within the AUGMENTED scale. Each note is a FULL STEP (2 half steps) above the previous one (e.g.- C, E, Ab).

[Gnarly He Man]

I feel that circular doesn't qualify, as there are enharmonics and it is somewhat key specific.
Gary

[chromaddict]

I am referring only to tunings that incorporate all 12 notes of the chromatic scale.

When I say symmetrical, I mean that the intervals that can be produced on each hole are the same.  For instance, on a standard tuned 12 hole C chromatic, The 1 hole produces C,C#,D,D#, and is symmetrical to the 3 hole, which produces G,G#,A,A#.  The 2 hole only produces E,F,F,F#, and it's the 4 hole that is really out of whack, producing C,C#,B,C (it's the only hole where drawing produces the lowest pitch). 

I suppose you could produce a symmetrical tuning based off the the 2 hole pattern, C,C#,C#,D - D#,E,E,F - F#,G,G,G# - A,A#,A#,B with 4 enharmonics.

Most of us love our standard tuning.  Perhaps we are so proud that were able to figure it out.  When I started out, I remember getting advice from another player.  Learn the chromatic scale!  I remember it taking quite some time to learn.  With a symmetrical tuning such as augmented, it can be learned in 2 seconds.  Augmented tuning is nothing more than having three 1 holes, that all act the same.  C,C#,D,D# - E,F,F#,G - G#,A,A#,B.

I think the biggest advantage to symmetrical tuning is playing by ear.  There is no need to even know what key you are in!

 

[Gnarly He Man]

Well, I use a few circular tunings (mostly on short harp), but strictly speaking, augmented is circular!
It's just that 4x3=12
Gary

[roady43]

I'm hoping for 10 or more members here.  The few the proud...

I'll accept any symmetrical tuning system without redundant notes.

I'm in.   

Of coarse, I have no choice! I'm part of the club!!!

I think everything about AUGMENTED (tuned harmonicas) here on SlideMeister begun, when Gnarly He Man started SLIPPY last December!
http://www.SlideMeister.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,40/topic,1708.msg18580#msg18580

I was happy and posted a lot of pics and patterns for various Hohner chroms etc. Then a very inspiring discussion continued after Don Lorenzos thread about the wholetone slide augmented harmonica.

Hope that many will join us, because I think augmented is a big improvement for our instrument and for all who like a freely independent melodic play (and those who won't miss the limited possibilities of some tonally restricted chords in solotuning).

roady43

[mm200024]

Okay this is a total newbie question, but does diminished tuning count? I recently purchased a solo tuned chrom and a diminished tuned and I like the diminished tuned much better. It just makes more sense to me.

[chromaddict]

Yes.  I wasn't familiar with diminished tuning but it seems to be in the same ballpark.  Where did you purchase it, if you don't mind my asking?

[roady43]

Okay this is a total newbie question, but does diminished tuning count? I recently purchased a solo tuned chrom and a diminished tuned and I like the diminished tuned much better. It just makes more sense to me.

In terms of chromaddicts demand concerning redundancies: NO 
quote:
I'll accept any symmetrical tuning system without redundant notes.

For full chromatic (no missing notes per octave), symmetrical and "making more sense": YES YES YES 
For the believe in alternativ tunings for harmonicas: I'd say, YES it counts!

Augmented asks for 4 patterns to be learned for the ability to play in all keys, diminished only 3.
Range of an augmented harmonica is much larger (4 octaves on 12 holes) than diminished (3 octaves).
Any augmented chord (f.e.: C - E - G# - C') consists of 2 large thirds building an augmented fifth, any diminished chord (A - C - Eb - Gb - A') of 2 or 3 small thirds (diminished fifth = A - Eb, diminished seventh = A - Gb).
Playing 3 or 4 holes at once on our instruments will make this all clearly audible and explains why except for some really jazzy altered tunes it would be nonsense to play chords here!

roady43

[Gnarly He Man]

Right, same deal with the dimi--3x4=12
I don't think the enharmonics rule out the dimi--but then, I am only an onlooker here
Gary

[mm200024]

Yes.  I wasn't familiar with diminished tuning but it seems to be in the same ballpark.  Where did you purchase it, if you don't mind my asking?

I purchased it off eBay about a week ago. It's a Seydel Deluxe tuned to G Diminished.  Not knowing anything about chromatics and having already purchased a solo tuned Hohner 280 the week before. What can I say, if your gonna go, go big.

[mm200024]

I like the diminished tuning because I also play blues mandolin and use several chord voicings. With my diminished I can voice every major, minor, and seventh chord. Of course the voicing of a major (3rd and 5h) is really just the same as the 1st and minor 3rd of a minor chord, but it makes perfect sense to me.

[pmelissakis]

I feel that circular doesn't qualify, as there are enharmonics and it is somewhat key specific.
Gary

Rats - The reason I am interested in circular is for reading music.

The blow or draw are always the same (space or line) and it makes it
much easier to play from sheet music.

Also, playing by ear seems a little easier for me on circular tuning.

I will have to try augmented whole tone tuning. I am intrigued.
Regardless, I wish I never started with the solo tuning. I keep
retuning the 1st redundant blow to Bd.

Pete

[Eugene]

Count me in.  I have been playing diminished tuning for some years now (6ish, I think), and I still love it.  It's not the perfect tuning (there isn't one), but it's very versatile and certainly suits music that changes key a lot (jazz, for example).  And like augmented tunings, it's symmetrical, which helps transposing or even shifting into a new key.  You can voice some chords as mentioned above, including using tongue blocking to play tritones and major 6ths etc.  And you can get dual-reed bending on 2/3 of the notes = 8 out of 12 notes of the chromatic scale if you're into those sort of shenanigans (I am).

already purchased a solo tuned Hohner 280 the week before.

At some point, you might consider retuning the 280 to Bb diminished, which will give you the same patterns as the G diminished.  It's a big retune, and having everything displaced by one hole will take a bit of getting used to, but it's a great horn!

Eugene

[mm200024]

Count me in.  I have been playing diminished tuning for some years now (6ish, I think), and I still love it.  It's not the perfect tuning (there isn't one), but it's very versatile and certainly suits music that changes key a lot (jazz, for example).  And like augmented tunings, it's symmetrical, which helps transposing or even shifting into a new key.  You can voice some chords as mentioned above, including using tongue blocking to play tritones and major 6ths etc.  And you can get dual-reed bending on 2/3 of the notes = 8 out of 12 notes of the chromatic scale if you're into those sort of shenanigans (I am).

already purchased a solo tuned Hohner 280 the week before.

At some point, you might consider retuning the 280 to Bb diminished, which will give you the same patterns as the G diminished.  It's a big retune, and having everything displaced by one hole will take a bit of getting used to, but it's a great horn!

Eugene

I'd love to retune it to diminished.  I have no idea how to do it, myself though...  Someday, I'll either pony up the dough to get it done or try to figure it out myself.

Is retuning hard?

[Eugene]

Is retuning hard?

Not hard, per se, think more... tedious    I'm kind of kidding, but it is time consuming and can be frustrating getting everything right.  Then again, you might love it the satisfaction of getting the harp exactly the way you want it.  You would have to do the tuning in several passes.  Tuning down a 280 to Bb diminished involves retuning 64 reeds, as opposed to retuning way fewer reeds for a diminished tuning based on a regular 48 reed 12 hole chrom.  I have to tune up every stock chrom I get, possibly one of the disadvantages of playing a non-standard tuning   

Building up the right set of tools is also important.  People who are tuning a lot usually have tools to speed up the process - for example, a rotary tool, although it's not necessary to get simple retuning done - sanding wands or a file would do.

Like the old joke "how do I get to X", "well, I wouldn't start from here if I was you" - I wouldn't start on the 280.  IMHO you would be better experimenting on a blues harp, maybe tuning up to country tuning or Paddy Richter.  Or maybe wait until your chromatic goes out of tune and then you'll have to retune anyway. 

I hope that helps.  Give me a shout if you need more information on any of the above at some stage.

Eugene

[mm200024]

Is retuning hard?

Not hard, per se, think more... tedious    I'm kind of kidding, but it is time consuming and can be frustrating getting everything right.  Then again, you might love it the satisfaction of getting the harp exactly the way you want it.  You would have to do the tuning in several passes.  Tuning down a 280 to Bb diminished involves retuning 64 reeds, as opposed to retuning way fewer reeds for a diminished tuning based on a regular 48 reed 12 hole chrom.  I have to tune up every stock chrom I get, possibly one of the disadvantages of playing a non-standard tuning   

Building up the right set of tools is also important.  People who are tuning a lot usually have tools to speed up the process - for example, a rotary tool, although it's not necessary to get simple retuning done - sanding wands or a file would do.

Like the old joke "how do I get to X", "well, I wouldn't start from here if I was you" - I wouldn't start on the 280.  IMHO you would be better experimenting on a blues harp, maybe tuning up to country tuning or Paddy Richter.  Or maybe wait until your chromatic goes out of tune and then you'll have to retune anyway. 

I hope that helps.  Give me a shout if you need more information on any of the above at some stage.

Eugene

Thanks, now I'm intrigued.  What do you do to tune a reed down?  I've heard just putting nail polish on the end would work, but is it that simple or does is require some magical technique?

[Gnarly He Man]

Reeds can be raised in pitch by removing material from the free end.
The pitch can be lowered by removing brass from the reed near the rivet, and I will do that if the interval is small.
But to lower reeds a lot, I have been using silver solder with great results.
I am going to undertake making a 12 hole augment for Grant (Chromaddict), which will requiring tuning the first octave down a major sixth. That's a lot!
Gary

[Don Lorenzo]

Boy, this is a really ACTIVE GROUP, huh?  (Just wait til our tuning catches on.)

I received an email from Pat Missin, today, and I replied immediately.  We R going to talk by phone (i hope) to discuss his converting my CX-Jazz to AUGMENTED TUNING (Whole Tone Slide). 

This is going to be exciting.

Don Lorenzo

[chromaddict]

Nice.  I was a little discouraged by Pat's 3-6 month time frame - but I'm sure I'll be getting something from him eventually.

[Gnarly He Man]

I am working on a 270 for Grant, and have just finished the rough tuning--it should be done sometime next week.
Pat wrote me once that you need to let tunings settle, and this harp has some massive retunes--I keep thinking of Roady's 16 hole instruments. Hey Roady, how far did you have to retune? Any stories/comments to share?
Gary

[Don Lorenzo]

I am working on a 270 for Grant, and have just finished the rough tuning--it should be done sometime next week.
Pat wrote me once that you need to let tunings settle, and this harp has some massive retunes--I keep thinking of Roady's 16 hole instruments. Hey Roady, how far did you have to retune? Any stories/comments to share?
Gary

WOW! A 16 hole harp would be over 5 octaves.   WHAT a RE-TUNE that would be. I, too, would like to hear how that went!

Don Lorenzo

[chromaddict]

I thought it was a 14 holer.

[chromaddict]

Yep - here's the quote from roady:

So for example my Meisterklasse "has to" start at B2, so I get G3 in hole 3 (the tricky thing was to find fitting reeds for hole 14, highest note F#7!)

Also I believe he replaces a lot of reeds rather than retuning large intervals.

[Gnarly He Man]

Isn't that cheating?
Gnarly Tunemeister

[roady43]

... -I keep thinking of Roady's 16 hole instruments. Hey Roady, how far did you have to retune? Any stories/comments to share?
Gary

14 is right...

Yep - here's the quote from roady:

So for example my Meisterklasse "has to" start at B2, so I get G3 in hole 3 (the tricky thing was to find fitting reeds for hole 14, highest note F#7!)

Also I believe he replaces a lot of reeds rather than retuning large intervals.

True, I only had to retune the reeds from the lowest hole (I ordered 4 x G3 and retuned them from B2 to D3 with solder). For all other tones except for hole 14 I have the fitting reeds. For D7 up to F#7 I chose highest blues harp reeds which I shortened to fit the slot and the tuning worked! Hope to make a video soon to prove the miracle  ...

roady43