Thought Experiment For A Possible Valveless Slide Chromatic

[streetlegal]

Arising from the 'Something New?' thread, I can now see from the bigger photos of that model that the slide has the usual diagonal holes and the comb is in two horizontal rows, as we are used to on chromatics. So my thinking on that model layout was completely on the wrong lines.

Even so it made me think of a new possible design for a chromatic harmonica, so I thought I'd set it down here for the record, just in case anyone ever wants to make one.

The design is pretty straightforward, based upon diatonic style comb (one hole for two valveless blow and draw reeds) matched with a simple stop/go slide (slide out - hole 1 fully open - slide in hole 1 fully shut). So effectively the slide would be operating as an air valve, thus eliminating the need for windsavers. As far as I know, such a harmonica has never been made, which is surprising because it is a much simpler concept, though not as versatile, as the standard chromatic harmonica.

This is just one possible layout - you can imagine this layout as diatonic C reedplates spliced together with diatonic C# reedplates. The slide switches from the C scale beginning on hole 1 to the C# scale beginning on hole 2.

Hole   1   2   3   4   5   6    7    8
Blow   C  C# E  F   G   G#  B   C
Draw  D  D#F  F# A   A#  C    D

To give it a large enough range, I think it would need to have 16 holes - though with an augmented tuning reed layout it would be possible to get a greater octave range from a smaller number of holes. 

 

[Keith]

... imagine this layout as diatonic C reedplates spliced together with diatonic C# reedplates..

I think you've just described the valveless chromatic - Swan, Kmise, etc. 

I notice in your modified version that we get a duplicate C just like a regular chromatic, is there any real benefit(?).

[streetlegal]

The 10 hole valveless chromatics now available I think are just built like normal chromatics, but without valves. The comb is the same and the slide is the same. So what you get is a chromatic which leaks air through the reed slots, so it is less responsive and plays quieter.

On this alternative concept, the blow and draw reeds would work like they do on a diatonic comb - with one bigger comb chamber instead of the two small ones you get on a chromatic comb - and of course no valves. With the slide closing down adjacent holes completely there would be much less leakage from one hole into the one next to it, like you get on a mouthpiece with a normal chromatic slide. The reed layout really would be a matter of choice - standard chromatic solo tuning could work equally well on this design - except that because of the double spacing big/split chords or octaves wouldn't be possible.

[Otter]

The 10 hole valveless chromatics now available I think are just built like normal chromatics, but without valves. The comb is the same and the slide is the same. So what you get is a chromatic which leaks air through the reed slots, so it is less responsive and plays quieter.

On my Kmise 1040, each mouthpiece hole lines up with four chambers in the comb, and the slider closes two of them in either position. So there is a separate chamber for each reed, but you're still blowing/drawing through two of them at any one mouthpiece hole. It's not quite what you're describing, but it is different from the standard Hohner comb and slider arrangement.

[frankyb]

The 10 hole valveless chromatics now available I think are just built like normal chromatics, but without valves. The comb is the same and the slide is the same. So what you get is a chromatic which leaks air through the reed slots, so it is less responsive and plays quieter.

On this alternative concept, the blow and draw reeds would work like they do on a diatonic comb - with one bigger comb chamber instead of the two small ones you get on a chromatic comb - and of course no valves. With the slide closing down adjacent holes completely there would be much less leakage from one hole into the one next to it, like you get on a mouthpiece with a normal chromatic slide. The reed layout really would be a matter of choice - standard chromatic solo tuning could work equally well on this design - except that because of the double spacing big/split chords or octaves wouldn't be possible.

I would add that my Kmise is airtight.     

[John Broecker]

All known valveless slide chromatics are
1-reed-per-chamber, like tremolo & octave
harps.

jb

[streetlegal]

Thanks for that John. I was half expecting you would come back with information that a harmonica like the one I have in my head had been made back in the 1920s. Maybe there is good reason why no-one ever made one of these - but I think it has some merit.

[SlimHeilpern]

All known valveless slide chromatics are
1-reed-per-chamber, like tremolo & octave
harps.

jb

Hi John -

I'm confused by your statement. For instance, I have an old Koch (Richter-tuned, ten hole chromatic), clearly no valves, clearly 2 reeds per chamber.

What about others, like the Hohner Educator -- I has assumed that was also 2 reeds per chamber, no?

- Slim

[SlimHeilpern]

Another thing regarding separate chambers for each reed:

I have one of the old cheap ($10) models from China that has this configuration. The problem is, if you want to bend a note, you have to have your mouth or tongue block all but one of the tiny 24 holes (quarter inch width), otherwise the bend is very difficult. You can certainly do this (probably easiest with pucker), but it is not easy, and you have to change position as you move from inhale to exhale or vice versa.

For anyone who's interested in this concept, the $10 model should be good enough to see if you're happy with this arrangement. I'm guessing there's a good reason why most of us opt instead for the windsaver approach, in all its imperfect glory :-).

Picture attached...

- Slim

[streetlegal]

That's a good point Slim. I thought that a diatonic style comb might be preferable with the stop/go single hole slide, as it might better suit those accustomed to diatonic bending techniques.

Looking at your old model I can see that it has the usual diagonal openings on the slide. The slide I have in mind has at least the virtue of greater simplicity - only requiring one line of square holes to be punched into the metal.

[John Broecker]

Hello, Slim, and Street Legal.

Thanks for discussing the 10-hole slide chromatics.
I was wrong. Please accept my apology.

I'm not familiar with the Asian 10-hole harps, but the
Hohner Chromonica (after 1928) and Hering Professional
40 are solo system, with 4 reeds per mouthpiece hole
(2 reeds per chamber).

The Hohner Koch Chromatic; Hohner Slide Harp and
Hering Vintage 40 are Richter system, with 4 reeds
per mouthpiece hole, 2 reeds per chamber.

The Hohner 10-hole Chrometta is solo system, starts
on G of the C scale. The Chrometta has 4 reeds per hole,
2 reeds per chamber.

As far as I know, Tombo & Suzuki don't make 10-hole
slide chromatics; and Seydel doesn't make no-valve
slide chromatics.

I'm unfamiliar with the modern Hohner Educator
harps, but the only antique Hohner Educator 10-
hole harp known to me is a Richter diatonic, with
appearance similar to Hohner's Golden Melody
diatonic.

Best Regards, Stay Healthy

John Broecker

[SlimHeilpern]

That's a good point Slim. I thought that a diatonic style comb might be preferable with the stop/go single hole slide, as it might better suit those accustomed to diatonic bending techniques. the reeds from each other.

Looking at your old model I can see that it has the usual diagonal openings on the slide. The slide I have in mind has at least the virtue of greater simplicity - only requiring one line of square holes to be punched into the metal.

Yeah, rereading your original post, I see that your design is indeed different. But I don't see how it removes the need for windsavers. It would act like a diatonic with respect to bending (some notes will bend more fully, others won't bend at all), but with additional air loss due to the slide. IOW, you still have 2 reeds per chamber, as we have on a standard chromatic with no windsavers. It seems to me that the reason windsavers work (when they do) is they emulate a single reed per chamber. Am I missing something?

- Slim

[streetlegal]

Well that would be one of the tests of the design - to see how responsive the reeds would be. Maybe not quite as responsive as on a good diatonic, but with more 'bendability' than on a standard chromatic.

I envisage that there would be less air loss from my slide for two reasons. First there is a single aperture on the slide, serving only that hole which is being played. The mouthpiece holes directly to the left and the right of the one being played would then be blocked off (unlike on a standard chromatic where both are open) - so the player's breath would be focused entirely into just that one reed chamber. Of course it would be necessary to have a close fitting slide and mouthpiece assembly to maximise airtightness - I'd imagine something like a CX12.

[SlimHeilpern]

Not trying to be argumentative, just seeking clarity:

Well that would be one of the tests of the design - to see how responsive the reeds would be. Maybe not quite as responsive as on a good diatonic, but with more 'bendability' than on a standard chromatic.

Let's define "more bendability": On a diatonic you can get deeper bends, but only on some of the notes. The first 6 draws can be bent down, but not the first 6 blows, and the reverse is true for the top 4 holes. So forget about a pitch-based vibrato on half the notes, since there is no bending.

I envisage that there would be less air loss from my slide for two reasons. First there is a single aperture on the slide, serving only that hole which is being played. The mouthpiece holes directly to the left and the right of the one being played would then be blocked off (unlike on a standard chromatic where both are open) - so the player's breath would be focused entirely into just that one reed chamber.
...

Sorry, I don't get it. On a standard chromatic, the slide only leaves one chamber open per hole, and the windsaver closes off one of the two reeds per chamber based on breath direction. In your model, as I understand it, both the blow and draw reeds in each chamber are exposed with no windsaver to reduce the air leak (that's how you're getting those deeper bends on selected notes). What am I missing?

Thanks,

- Slim

[streetlegal]

Missing the magic . The great thing about thought experiments is that everything works fine.

Of course it would be possible to make it with a two chamber comb. In that case you would have greater isolation of the blow reed from the draw reed, but lose some of the diatonic possibilities - but perhaps that is the better trade off. I would have to give way to experienced diatonic players on that point.

So in that case, just for the sake of illustration, let's imagine a CX12 build with just one reed for each comb chamber - blow upper plate - draw lower plate. So comb and cover/mouthpiece would be stock CX12. The slide would be the simpler stop/go one hole system I have described, and the reedplates would be custom built to the desired layout/tuning. So now we have something that feels more like a chromatic than a diatonic.

[Keith]

I have a valveless CX12 already, , it takes more air than a valved, but is perfectly playable, after having adjusted the reed gaps.