Tuning in fifths

[streetlegal]

Just this week I restrung my old Eko accoustic guitar , which I haven't played for ages. I wanted to see if I could tune it so that I could pick out tunes on it just like I do on my mandolin. To do this I had to tune each open string one fifth above the one below. So after breaking a 1st string trying to stretch it to an A, I ended up with this open tuning ascending Ab - Eb - Bb - F - C - G. Of course the lowest string is very floppy and barely playable, but otherwise it works quite nicely.

So this got me thinking about whether a regular fifth spaced tuning could be applied to the chromatic - the regular fifth spacing would work out like this -

1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 11
C - G - D - A - E - B
D - A - E - B - F#-C#

I know nothing is new - so maybe someone out there is already playing a chromatic just like this. I don't think I would - as I'm happy with my half classical easy conversion layout - but I think this fifths tuning would have the advantage of logical pattern regularity.

[Sailboat Slim]

Pretty sure the way guitars are usually tuned to open 5ths is tonic, 5th, tonic, tonic, 5th, tonic. Then you can just put one finger across all 6 strings on any fret and have a chord of some kind.

[Gnarly He Man]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_standard_tuning
And then there's this . . .

TRUE CHROMATIC (Chromatic) (SPTCHR00)

SLIDE  C# E  G# B  D# F# A# C# F  G# C  D# BLOW   C  Eb G  Bb D  F  A  C  E  G  B  D HOLE   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 11 12 DRAW   D  F  A  C  E  G  B  D  Gb A  Db E SLIDE  D# F# A# C# F  G# C  D# G  A# D  F

[streetlegal]

Yep - that's the one Gary   I thought that there must be a proper name for it. Any True Chromatic players out there?

[Bluesy]

Pretty sure the way guitars are usually tuned to open 5ths is tonic, 5th, tonic, tonic, 5th, tonic. Then you can just put one finger across all 6 strings on any fret and have a chord of some kind.

Standard guitar tuning is EADGBE (bottom to top). THat tuning is not in fifths. But violins, cellos bass viols and mandolins are tuned in fifths. For example, violin and mandolin are: GDAE.

T/

[Grizzly]

Tuning a guitar in fifths…let's see…

Oh! streelegal said in his original post, "I wanted to see if I could tune it so that I could pick out tunes on it just like I do on my mandolin."

Well, now.

As far as tuning guitars to EADGBE, let's not ignore DADGAD, Drop D, and a host of others (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_tunings#Alternative). As far as fiddle goes, there are many other tunings besides all fifths: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin#Tuning

streetlegal, that chart you made is just for slide out, correct? Would slide in raise it a half step, and would you be able to play a chromatic scale in fifth tuning on a chromatic harmonica?

Tom

[streetlegal]

Good question Tom - I was sitting plotting this out with pen and paper last night. The fifths tuning I had in mind isn't, in fact, the same as the True Chromatic shown above. Filling in the gaps, it would go like this for a sharp slide version. This is a strict layout in fifths - slide out/slide in, blow and draw - right down the line, as it flows from Hole 1 blow C.

          1   2   3    4   5    6     7    8     9    10   11   12
B/S     C# F   Ab  C   Eb  G    Bb   D     F     A     C    E
Blow   C   E   G    B   D   F#   A    C#   E    Ab    B    Eb   
Draw   D   F   A    C   E   G     B    D     F#   A     C#  E
D/S    Eb  F#  Bb  C#  F   Ab   C    Eb    G    Bb    D    F

[Grizzly]

Draw F in the first octave should be an F#?

Tom

[streetlegal]

Well spotted Tom . I always tend to make these mistakes on slide notes because I am a flat slide player. At least that's my excuse - I have made the correction.

I think that because we are so used to playing octaves in repeating patterns on our chromatics that it is difficult to imagine playing a layout like this. But just like on a violin there is something in the regular arrangement of fifths that would make for more intuitive playing - perhaps a more truly chromatic approach to music making?

There is of course a repeating pattern within this layout - but you would only see it on a 24 hole chromatic, as at that point the circle of fifths would return to C blow to begin again.

[Winslow Yerxa]

Why not just use a consistent interval, as is done in diminished and augmented (aka wholetone) tunings?

[Gnarly He Man]

Yeah, I am working on JP Pagan's 280, it's tuned to diminished, and I find it not too difficult to navigate.
Still gonna stick to bebop, but there is no reason for someone who has played for a short time not to switch to this tuning, especially for jazz.
G

[spacebuffalo]

Standard guitar tuning is EADGBE (bottom to top). THat tuning is not in fifths.
[/quote]

No but it could considered tuning in 4ths except for G-B.

[Sailboat Slim]

I guess I wasn't communicating well. What I was trying to say was that if you have a guitar and don't want to bother with learning how to finger all the chords you can just tune it to open 5ths. Then you put one finger (or a slide) across all 6 strings and strum. Move your finger up and down the fretboard for other chords. You can do a reasonably good job of faking it this way. Last ditch method for people like me with short, fat fingers. 

[streetlegal]

Thinking again about this fifths tuning, I reckon it might be best to go all the way and start on blow G3 - just like the lowest open string on a violin. That would be the same layout as above, if you read Hole 3 as Hole 1. I'm not going to do this myself - but this fifths tuning might appeal to a music purist - I'm thinking that the regularity of this arrangement might work particularly well for players who like to play across a number of keys within the same piece - I believe the technical term for such playing is modulation.

[Jason Rogers]

Yeah, I am working on JP Pagan's 280, it's tuned to diminished, and I find it not too difficult to navigate.
Still gonna stick to bebop, but there is no reason for someone who has played for a short time to switch to this tuning, especially for jazz.
G

I am enjoying the CX you retuned to Dimi for me Gnarlsburg.

Did you mean that there is no reason NOT to switch to this tuning...? 

[Eugene]

Diminished - love it.

I think for any tuning has its pros and cons and we have to think of those in the context of how real music is going to sit on it.  A new tuning can give you some of these things (it's not an exhaustive list):

• ease of playing in one key / scale (usually vs ease of playing in many keys and vice versa, with some compromise in between)
• chords & double-stops etc available
• range available
• consistent patterns in multiple octaves
• bends available
• trills and other decorations available

So, the spiral tunings will give you diatonic chords and consistent breath direction for melody but not regularity of patterns across the octaves, diminished will give you ease of transposition and dual-reed bends, solo will give you  - ha, not going there - other advantages 

Having been through adopting and inventing some new tunings, I'd recommend the following process:

• come up with a conceptual idea based on some advantage that a tuning scheme would have
• think about how music would fit on that and what it gives you from the list above
• build it
• play music on it and see what works
• if something doesn't fit, make some change and go back to step 3, possibly through multiple iterations
• if it's not working, bin it for parts / retune 

Eugene

[streetlegal]

Certainly there is no shortage of options for customised tunings. I think that most people will take solo as a given and work to improve their playing within that layout. That may in fact be the best approach, as has been suggested, because a player can then put everything but playing out of his head.

But I have found it very interesting to think about alternatives. The one I chose -'half-classical' - was the easiest 'do it myself' conversion from solo. But other tunings have appealed to me too as logical repeating patterns. The 'fifths' tuning, in contrast, has nothing to do with making things easier for chromatic harmonica playing - but is rather a systematic layout for playing music, without any concession to instrument or player. A challenge certainly - maybe even a bridge too far.

 

[Gnarly He Man]

Yeah, I am working on JP Pagan's 280, it's tuned to diminished, and I find it not too difficult to navigate.
Still gonna stick to bebop, but there is no reason for someone who has played for a short time to switch to this tuning, especially for jazz.
G

I am enjoying the CX you retuned to Dimi for me Gnarlsburg.

Did you mean that there is no reason NOT to switch to this tuning...?

Oops, forgot the important word "not"--original post edited, sorry.